Author Topic: A bit of lever action  (Read 58769 times)

Offline grinderz

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #240 on: February 26, 2011, 10:59:17 AM »
"the path [to espresso nirvana] is long and winding"
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Offline staylor

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #241 on: February 26, 2011, 11:29:44 AM »

... I, like you, appreciate 'the romantic and the tactile' side of coffee, the ability to engage in process and create paragraphs in the moment rather than sentences. It is a strength and a weakness. If you can balance the beauty of lever . . .


Oh, I know that side of you.  Earlier, before you posted, I was perusing this thread this morning (I think for the 3rd time in the past few months), I stumbled upon some of your early thoughts about a lever shot:

Quote
The single pull, as you can imagine, is more intense and satisfying like wrapping a heavy robe around yourself, like a ristretto off a vibe pump... but not really, haha. The double pull is 'more open' and still satisfying but showing more breathing space and stage presence. Kind of like comparing a small chamber concert in a non-reflective surface antechamber vs. a larger concert with a three row stage setup in a taller ceiling space with maybe a window or two open to let a cross-breeze through....

B|Java

I was under the influence of espresso when I wrote that. ;-)

Offline Warrior372

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #242 on: February 26, 2011, 01:04:31 PM »
The thing you have going for you is that you have consumed amazing shots of espresso at one time or another, so at least you would be able to compare the shots you were pulling to something and judge their quality / how well you are doing. The main thing I think makes levers a challenge is also the same thing that makes them so great, your ability to manipulate the shot. You can grind and tamp a million different ways and compensate for those parameters by pre-infusing for longer or shorter periods of time, you can pull the lever down again anywhere throughout the shot to alter flow rate and you can even push, ever so slightly, up on the lever if the shot is pulling too slow for you.

If you are looking for more layers of flavor and more nuanced flavors I would tell you to look at the machines with smaller groupheads / portafilters. They tend to not be the best machines for entertaining a lot of people, with Staylors 2 head Ponte Vecchio being the real exception, because of their small boiler size and the time you have to wait for the group to depressurize after pulling a shot (1-2 minutes). With what is available right now I think Staylor has the most versatile machine in that group on the market. All together, the small group levers are steam monsters. My Elektra Micro Casa a Leva was an absolute animal. I have had somewhere around 10 levers and can without a doubt say that the most unique shots came from the Elektra and Olympia. My girlfriend consistently reminds me of how much she like the small milk drinks I made for her with the Elektra.

I have pulled my fair share of horrible shots on lever machines, but at the end of the day I personally enjoy the end results as well as the overall experience on a lever so much more than a semi-auto. I still enjoy shots from semi-autos, but just for different reasons.


The only thing I would caution you on (as I'm now experiencing it myself) is the rabbit hole of lever possibilities. Not the kind of rabbit hole stuff we've discussed earlier but the idea that's been forming in my pea brain for a couple of months now... "what could I do with other levers, more capable levers, better levers, different levers, older levers?"

I like the PVL, I do. But I also want to see what the G3 of levers can do, or at least somewhere in the middle between the PVL and a Kees lever. I also wonder about the old Italian levers. I wonder about some of the stuff Warrior372 has pulled on and I wonder what's holding me back from 'better'. And that gets to the crux of my lever dilemma... what is 'better' or more correctly what is 'lever espresso'? Of course the path is long and winding and I've only just crossed the threshold but already I'm staring off into the distance and wondering what's over the crest of that hill. If you know yourself and you know you might eventually be thinking the same thing, you might want to start chunking away a couple of 5'ers every now and then, enough to buy your first machine and enough to start saving for the next one. ;-)


Ummm . . . . Yea. That definitely happened to me.  The reason I started refurbishing and selling levers is because I started wondering if other machines could possibly fulfill more of what my palette happened to like at the moment. I do not have enough disposable income to go out and purchase every machine I wanted to try, so I started trolling for deals. When I see a lever I am interested in playing with priced for $500 or less I would buy it, rebuild it, play with it and if it did not impress me / my palette I would sell it (That was the plan. . . . I think I have only sold 3-4 of them and have about 7 in all different stages of being rebuilt in my apartment. . . ). So, I went from a 49mm Elektra to a 49mm Cremina and then onto commercial levers.

In my opinion, what 58mm commercial levers have in temp stability and convenience they lack in the neighborhood of layers and nuanced flavors. They have more than a comparable 58mm semi-auto, but the flavors hit much differently pulling shots on a 58mm versus pulling shots on machines with smaller groups. I think that is one of the reasons La San Marco has such a cultish following. They make commercial levers that can be left on forever, they have a huge water capacity, temp stability (due to the massive amounts of metal used) and can bang out shots (like all commercial levers), but they also have a 53mm grouphead / portafilter setup so you can still get a similar flavor profile to something like an Elektra MCaL, Olympia Cremina, Ponte Vecchio.

It is definitely a different world :) .
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 01:40:15 PM by Warrior372 »

Offline staylor

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #243 on: February 26, 2011, 01:08:39 PM »
Wish your apartment was just a couple of houses down from my place.

BoldJava

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #244 on: March 11, 2011, 07:03:16 AM »
ST,

How about temp stability on levers.  Do you need to temp surf?  What kind of temp band does it come set at?  

I also noticed that your unit seems "housed" in a compartment-like construction vs the free standing approach of an EXPORT (1 liter).  Is it the larger boiler (3 litres) that merely accounts for that housing?

B|Java
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 07:07:53 AM by BoldJava »

Offline staylor

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #245 on: March 11, 2011, 10:35:55 AM »
ST,

How about temp stability on levers.  Do you need to temp surf?  What kind of temp band does it come set at?  

I also noticed that your unit seems "housed" in a compartment-like construction vs the free standing approach of an EXPORT (1 liter).  Is it the larger boiler (3 litres) that merely accounts for that housing?

B|Java


The PVL is temp stable in my opinion. Temp surfing isn't necessary and the temp band is set by the boiler pressure you run it at.

The boiler does take up a good chunk of the interior but from a 'sitting on the counter' point of view it's not a big machine. Take a look at this link http://www.home-barista.com/ponte-vecchio-lusso-review.html as the guys at HB did a really good job on the PVL review.

A friend just left our place a few mins ago, he dropped by to pick up some beans and stayed for a couple of hours, while he was here I hooked him up with a couple of small milks pulling a 5 day old Nyeri. He says the best coffee he's ever had he gets in my kitchen and he's been to a lot of good retail locations in N. America. Pulling a 5 day old Nyeri on a BII might have been too much 'in your face Kenyan' but on the PVL it isn't. The PVL's basket dimensions allow for some pretty interesting results and of course the ability to manipulate the shot via the inherent lever advantages can really drive out some good espresso. I'm not saying the PVL is the be all end all, nothing is. And I'm not saying I have a unique talent to provide great coffee, because I don't. What I am saying is with good beans, some experience and an interest in espresso exploration, pretty much anyone can pull good drinks on the PVL - without too much fuss.

Now that my buddy is gone I can get back to the machine and have a first shot at that 4 day old BUF Cafe.

Good times!

Offline peter

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #246 on: March 11, 2011, 10:40:42 AM »
If B|Java is going to start drinking SO shots of Kenya, I'm going to sell tickets.   ;D
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Offline staylor

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #247 on: March 11, 2011, 10:49:24 AM »
Haha, well at one point in history it was believed the Earth was flat. ;-)

Offline mp

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #248 on: March 11, 2011, 10:50:49 AM »
Haha, well at one point in history it was believed the Earth was flat. ;-)

 ;D
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BoldJava

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #249 on: March 11, 2011, 11:03:35 AM »

...I'm not saying the PVL is the be all end all, nothing is. And I'm not saying I have a unique talent to provide great coffee, because I don't. What I am saying is with good beans, some experience and an interest in espresso exploration, pretty much anyone can pull good drinks on the PVL - without too much fuss...


I get that.  Your writing is clear and I don't find you 'fluff' your experience.  It has sucked me in though, to really considering a lever as the center piece for our kitchen in the retirement home that looms on the horizon.

I will read the review as well as the smackdown comparison:  http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/lever-espresso-machines-smackdown-t5176.html.  Reallllllllllly looking forward to visiting Dogwood Coffee in the Twin Cities and chewing the barista's ear off about their commercial lever.

I could have sworn I heard some noise.  Is that Peter rattling a cage, like a kid walking by an archaic zoo cage with a stick, zzzzzzzzzzzzitttt...

B|Java
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 11:27:38 AM by BoldJava »

Offline staylor

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #250 on: March 11, 2011, 12:21:51 PM »
Maybe Peter is rattling the cage bars at the goat compound? ;-)

BoldJava

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #251 on: March 11, 2011, 12:49:41 PM »
Maybe Peter is rattling the cage bars at the goat compound? ;-)

I hear nothing.

B|Java

Offline peter

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #252 on: March 11, 2011, 01:02:57 PM »
Maybe Peter is rattling the cage bars at the goat compound? ;-)


I hear nothing.

B|Java



That would be you on the right.
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BoldJava

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #253 on: March 11, 2011, 01:07:27 PM »

That would be you on the right.


What?


Offline mp

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Re: A bit of lever action
« Reply #254 on: March 11, 2011, 01:25:13 PM »
The Thrilla in Manilla ... Monkey vs Goat!

 :o
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