Author Topic: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!  (Read 90083 times)

Offline John F

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #705 on: August 01, 2010, 09:15:15 AM »
The only part of this that gets my knickers in a knot is the suggestion that Tex's tutelage would have only led me to make "entry level acceptable coffee".  That kinda irks me;

I don't think it should.

Isn't he himself on the record as saying that's his goal/aim/claim?

One thing you are certainly correct about is that I've not had your coffee and can't say anything about it. However my guess is that you have surpassed the level of instruction you started with and that is what has taken you further.

Tex has said repeatedly his deal is about controlling the basic necessities and in 10 min he can have a newbie pulling acceptable shots. Correct me if I'm wrong on that but if I'm not that is the same thing I said...."entry level acceptable coffee" and there isn't anything wrong with that, but it is what it is.

For the rest of it, it seems to me that you have egged him on and encouraged him in this very behavior you are now griping about.  

I don't agree with this either.

As best I can tell all I am doing is explaining some things new members or casual readers may not be aware of to make some sense of this thread.

Did I misrepresent anything there?

I don't think I did.

And I'm not egging on, in fact I doubt there are any questions in what I said or what would be open ended statements either.







« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 09:30:28 AM by John F »
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Offline Warrior372

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #706 on: August 01, 2010, 09:43:56 AM »
I am sorely tempted by the La Peppina. I would be interested if anyone had one to sell.


You mentioned somewhere back about "skipping ahead" to the lever.

I'm not sure it's a good idea. Not sure it could be bad either but from what you say you have never had good results via pump machines and if you don't take any time to go explore that and figure out what's up I don't know that you will be in the right place to use the lever as the next frontier. It will be your starting point.

I find it hard to find the words to say why that might not be the best idea because it's a fine idea....you are just missing a giant chunk of travel if you do that but your destination is still a good one. Does that make any sense?

 


John,

My first machine was a brass and copper Elektra Micro Casa a Leva. That was 4 years ago, and looking back now I would not have done it any other way. Between then and now I have had somewhere around 20 machines with 3 being HX machines. Every time I have had an HX it has entertained me for a few weeks / months, but I always end up selling them and going back to my levers. HXs are great machines and they definitely have their advantages. With that said, the small PF levers seem to just bring out such fine flavor nuances in the cup where they HXs really never could. Every style of machine is going to have it's advantages and disadvantages, but I do not think you would regret jumping straight to a lever. Just know that it takes a little longer to get a good grasp on pulling a great shot.

There is a Peppina on Ebay with 1 day and a few hours left. Right now it is at $168. Any price under $400 is fair for a Peppina in good condition.http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139] [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139[/url]

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #707 on: August 01, 2010, 09:52:53 AM »
For the rest of it, it seems to me that you have egged him on and encouraged him in this very behavior you are now griping about.
I don't agree with this either.
[/quote]

I agree that YOU have not done this.
I would say that the group in general has.

And now I am going to leave this thread for good.
It got rather like a Hot Topic, and we all know that I do not do well when it gets "hot"...

Susan

Offline John F

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #708 on: August 01, 2010, 09:56:49 AM »
My first machine was a brass and copper Elektra Micro Casa a Leva. That was 4 years ago, and looking back now I would not have done it any other way.

Yeah, I was having trouble picking my words there.

I suppose there is no wrong move to be had really and I can't figure out how to say what I am thinking so.....yeah.  ;D
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Offline John F

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #709 on: August 01, 2010, 10:00:56 AM »
And now I am going to leave this thread for good.
It got rather like a Hot Topic, and we all know that I do not do well when it gets "hot"...

Let it go Gurl.  ;D

This like HT is not worth getting yourself worked up over. It's worth hashing out for those that wish to do it but here is the bottom line...

I've had 2 cups of pourover so far today, what have you been drinking? Later on I'm either going to build a small milk latte or maybe do an iced AP...how about you? Between all of this there is that, ya know?  ;)
"At no point should you be in condition white unless you are in your bed sleeping with your doors locked."

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CAGurl

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #710 on: August 01, 2010, 10:04:08 AM »
Let it go Gurl.  ;D

This like HT is not worth getting yourself worked up over. It's worth hashing out for those that wish to do it but here is the bottom line...

I've had 2 cups of pourover so far today, what have you been drinking? Later on I'm either going to build a small milk latte or maybe do an iced AP...how about you? Between all of this there is that, ya know?  ;)

Right you are !!!!

Next up is a latte built on a double shot of Ecco Organic Espresso beans picked up at the Farmer's Market....

Susan


Offline John F

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #711 on: August 01, 2010, 10:15:58 AM »
Next up is a latte built on a double shot of Ecco Organic Espresso beans picked up at the Farmer's Market....

 ;)
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Offline staylor

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #712 on: August 01, 2010, 10:45:25 AM »
John,

My first machine was a brass and copper Elektra Micro Casa a Leva. That was 4 years ago, and looking back now I would not have done it any other way. Between then and now I have had somewhere around 20 machines with 3 being HX machines. Every time I have had an HX it has entertained me for a few weeks / months, but I always end up selling them and going back to my levers. HXs are great machines and they definitely have their advantages. With that said, the small PF levers seem to just bring out such fine flavor nuances in the cup where they HXs really never could. Every style of machine is going to have it's advantages and disadvantages, but I do not think you would regret jumping straight to a lever. Just know that it takes a little longer to get a good grasp on pulling a great shot.

There is a Peppina on Ebay with 1 day and a few hours left. Right now it is at $168. Any price under $400 is fair for a Peppina in good condition. [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139]http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139] [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139[/url]


You would know better than I regarding levers but from my research over at HB and elsewhere I've come to believe either rightly or wrongly that the Peppina would be a more difficult lever to learn espresso on as a beginner as opposed to some of the other alternatives. When comparing a Peppina to the PVL the PVL gets the nod for reasons of the forgiving basket dimensions and the common statement that the PVL 'somehow manages to pull great shots across a pretty wide band'. Comparing the MCaL to the PVL, I think the general consensus over at HB is the PVL pulls shots easier (good for a beginner) and though lacking some of the potential clarity of the MCal it pulls shots that are as good in their own way, that said I would still like an MCaL next to the PVL. ;-)

You know from experience and I know from reading that all the levers have their own 'character' and so a lever choice as a beginner should be done fairly carefully if they are to start exploring espresso with an eye towards staying with espresso for the long haul rather than giving up in frustration. Also as a beginner I think the purchase be made with more of an eye towards a couple of years of ownership rather than what's the cheapest. I've got no problem with spending less, in fact my wife often accuses me of being Scottish, but with purchases like these sometimes it's better to buy the right machine the first time rather than the fourth time. Spending a bit more, amortized over a couple of years, will help a beginner get on the right path with less frustration and ultimately better results. Budget is a big factor in purchasing decisions and if a person only has $50 to spend then all the head scratching is simply tire kicking. For under $1000 there are a few choices in lever (pre-owned) but you can certainly get a single group PVL for under a G note.

I've pulled espresso on quite a few machines over the years, from commercial Synesso's and Rancillio's to my own shop machine for 2yrs which was a (no electronics) 3 group HX machine, of course I had the BII for about 4yrs and now I'm on to the lever. Through all of that I can always say to a beginner looking for direction that when it comes to espresso it's better to buy something that can outperform your own beginner abilities, how long it will do that is a matter of making the correct choice up front. And to continue the logic train, the machine should provide consistent results on multiple back to back shots in a short period of time (after all, it will be an 'experimentation lab' for the passionate beginner) and that's no easy machine choice if a person does their research. And lastly but perhaps not as important to a single person who never gets visitors, that the machine will meet the needs of entertaining and that means seven people in your kitchen wanting a small milk drink and for some of them it is their second drink.

Is lever the right choice for a beginner, I'm not so sure about that. Using Peter as an example of a smart decision; he purchased a reliable machine, capable of repeatability over back to backs, it has capacity to entertain and it has an understandable learning curve. There's something to be said about learning in a fairly linear fashion. Lever isn't a linear learning curve due to its pressure profile adjustability within the shot and of course that affects the shot to shot experimentation's of a beginner and that complicates the learning landscape for the beginner. Of course we aren't talking about NASA rocket science here but depending on the individual it might make the difference between staying on the path or giving up on espresso.

Could a person learn to pull great shots on a lever as a beginner, I think they could, but I think they would have skipped an important education by not going with an E-61 like Peter's to begin with. Of course then it comes back to budget and the lever-wannabe might be thinking 'buy Peter's machine and then some day I'm gonna buy a lever???? I can't afford that' but using Peter as an example again (sorry Peter) he can flip his machine back on to the market in a year or two and not have lost much money, he will have bought an education for his troubles and enjoyed a heck of a lot of good espresso, then he can post up here with a solid understanding of his espresso needs and ask the question 'which lever do you guys think...' or... he can hang on to his E-61 for several years and never look back, knowing he made a very capable choice on his first purchase.

Offline peter

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #713 on: August 01, 2010, 11:21:43 AM »
Could a person learn to pull great shots on a lever as a beginner, I think they could, but I think they would have skipped an important education by not going with an E-61 like Peter's to begin with. Of course then it comes back to budget and the lever-wannabe might be thinking 'buy Peter's machine and then some day I'm gonna buy a lever???? I can't afford that' but using Peter as an example again (sorry Peter) he can flip his machine back on to the market in a year or two and not have lost much money, he will have bought an education for his troubles and enjoyed a heck of a lot of good espresso, then he can post up here with a solid understanding of his espresso needs and ask the question 'which lever do you guys think...' or... he can hang on to his E-61 for several years and never look back, knowing he made a very capable choice on his first purchase.

You can use me any time...  ;) 

I suppose it will vary for every person.  My latest 'spiritual project' (for lack of a better term) is to forget about the goal, and instead let the process have the priority.  I can go to preaching some other time, but it applies well to espresso too.

Somebody like Mike, warrior372 (which makes me want to hint at him to go post in that username thread  ;D) might have the mind and character make-up that would allow for a lever to be the ground level.  Others like perhaps Pyment and certainly myself, have something in us that may need a couple less variables.

The questions to ask ourselves are can I embrace the process for the duration?  Do I have the personality to enjoy a ride that may have some extra twists and turns?  Can I turn that process into a bed of wisdom, or will the twists and turns be a frustration?
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Offline Warrior372

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #714 on: August 01, 2010, 11:33:08 AM »
I do believe the Peppina does have a 58mm basket, so your cup would not get the same notes that could be produced by a smaller MCaL, PVL, MicroCimbali, etc. They are darn cool looking though. (edit > their PFs are actualy 45mm, so they should be able to achieve similar results.)

Peter could sell his machine for a decent amount of money, but if you find a classic lever for a fair price you could stand to actually make money on your purchase. I bought the MCaL new for $1050 and had it for about 2 years. In that 2 years the retail for the machine went from $1,050 to $1,350, so when I went to sell it I got all of what I paid for it back. I can not say that about any of the HX machines I have owned. The HXs are always being modified and upgraded by the retailers to make new and improved models, while the many of the levers are the same as they have been since the 60s.

Is an HX easier to learn on than a Lever machine? Absolutely. Is learning how to use a spin rod easier than learning how to fly fish? Yes. Is it easier to buy handmade cheese than to make your own? Yes. Some things are just more appealing to some people versus others. Not that one is absolutely wrong and one is absolutely right, but people have preferences. I prefer spending more time on / with simpler things, regardless of whether the process is more or less difficult.

You are absolutely right in saying people will achieve better results more quickly with an HX. I just like the chase of pursuing the perfect shot with very simple and classic machines.

As for all of this SBDU versus HX stuff. . . I say we end the conversation by saying everyone should just buy a single group commercial lever machine and most of the argued points will be answered. Temperature stability? Yes all of the metal in my 85lb levers make them very temp stable. I can steam for hours on end and pull shots at the same time. They go up in value because they are very rare. They look like mechanical art.

I am just joking around everyone should, just buy what makes them happy or what they think will make them happy now and for the near future. The nice part about things like craigslist is that you can find lever machines, HX machines, commercial machines, SBDUs, etc. all for under $500 dollars. If you really look hard and are patient you can find all of them for around $200. So look for deals, buy different types of machines and try them out to see what You personally prefer.  That is why I have had so many machines over the past few years, Levers, HXs, Semi-Autos, I am just curious about what every type of machine has to offer. They all offer different things that make them as machines fun to use and learn about espresso on.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 02:24:08 PM by Warrior372 »

Offline staylor

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #715 on: August 01, 2010, 11:44:27 AM »
Hurry up and build me an awesome antique lever that pulls amazing shots, for $37, ok maybe $38. ;-)

Offline John F

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #716 on: August 01, 2010, 11:48:58 AM »
I say we end the conversation by saying everyone should just buy a single group commercial lever machine ..

Like what?

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Offline Warrior372

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #717 on: August 01, 2010, 12:09:10 PM »
I say we end the conversation by saying everyone should just buy a single group commercial lever machine ..

Like what?



John,

I was just kidding around. Buy whatever you think will meet / exceed your current expectations. Try to get it for the best price possible so if it does not meet your expectations / preferences or you up your expectations at any point you can sell the machine for at least what you paid for it and purchase a different machine.

The reason I started 'collecting' lever machines is because even within the same style of machine there are a lot of differences. I personally prefer levers with smaller PF baskets. That is me. 10 people could try shots pulled from a 49mm PF lever machine and disagree with me. I am not playing to other peoples palates / preferences I am playing to my own. The reason I filter through so many machines is that I am always looking for machines at a great price that might better please my palate.


Offline John F

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #718 on: August 01, 2010, 12:13:34 PM »
John,

I was just kidding around.

I wasn't...info on levers is not easy to come by for some reason.  :-X

If you have 2-3 recommendations on single group commercial lever machines (and a place to buy them) I'd spend time looking into that.
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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #719 on: August 01, 2010, 12:44:42 PM »
I do believe the Peppina does have a 58mm basket

I think it's more like 45 mm.

Susan