Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[Tex]

Your joking right?

That's poor reproducibility.  Really poor. 

You keep bringing up HB and some of their experts.  Why don't you post those graphs and your claims over there and see if Galt, Schulman or any other of your exoerts agree with your argument that SBDU units are better then HX or oter DB alternatives for ANYONE.  Please do that.

I'd never question the integrity of Jim's work: but in this instance I'm simply putting it out there for all to study and draw their own conclusions. As for the graphs being posted, to the best of my knowledge, Jim's work has been posted in every legitimate coffee forum I'm aware of, and have always been accepted at face value wwith no suggestion of the results being doctored.

Do you have anything but anecdotal evidence to counter these graphs?

[Tex]

Ok Tex, I'll play your game and look at how you define espresso, it's not how I define it but it'll be fun to look at. This one from the ITALIAN ESPRESSO NATIONAL INSTITUTE (as defined by them in 1999):

"What is Espresso?
It is the best way to obtain from knowledgeably roasted coffee beans all the pleasure that they are able to give. More practically, espresso is the drink-in-a-cup obtained by forcing adequately pressurised water through coffee powder. Espresso coffee should not contain any additive or flavouring and should be free of any artificially added water."

When looking at your source definition let me know where I went wrong when I called what I do espresso. Let's see, I used a cup, I used pressurized water through coffee powder and I didn't put in any additive or flavoring, it was also free of any artificially added water. Alright then, one down and one to go.

Now let's look at what you use as another guiding beacon of espresso knowledge the link from Whole Latte Love which you endearingly titled "just someone making this crap up", you sure know how to pick 'em:

"DOUBLE SHOT: Equals 2 to 2.5 fluid ounces of water pulled through approximately 14 grams of ground coffee in about 20 to 25 seconds.

Start timing your “extraction” (the shot you are making) when you hit the brew button, and always tamp (pack the coffee into the portafilter basket) with about 30lbs. of pressure."

Interesting, no mention of killing a shot upon early blonding, just a simple little definition of weight and time. When was the last time you drank a 2.5oz straight espresso? Go out into the retail world, high-quality retail coffee shops that is, are there even such things as espresso cups that can hold 2.5oz of espresso? How about you watch 50 or 60 World Barista Championship videos, you know what those are right, the guys and girls who are in the industry and pull tens of thousand of shots per year with all kinds of coffee and collaborate with hundreds of other baristas and thousands upon thousands of their customers and all of them operate at a world caliber level, let me know when you see a 2.5oz shot pulled and served. You can start learning here: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=obM&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&tbs=vid%3A1&q=world+barista+championship+video&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Why does the word 'third-wave' scare you so much? Do you fear change? Or are you uncomfortable in a world that has evolved around you? You can do something about it.

"Otherwise anyone with an Aeropress or Bialetti can claim to be making espresso." There you go with a distortion of facts again.

"Flaunting the norms, while proclaiming oneself the expert, is hardly the sign of a rational mind." What norms, yours? Who are you referring to that proclaimed them self to be ab expert?

"taking into consideration that if I disdain these norms I'm likely to be called on it, because espresso is a rules derived process." That's opinion not fact, espresso has guidelines but please feel free to show me the 'rulebook'. And dude, you are being called out on it, all day long...

Hey dude, try to summarize what you have to say - please. These threads get ridiculously long if we're to quote entire pages of text.

OK, we all play by Shaun's rules from now on, because he's a superior barista and knows more than anyone else in the industry. There, does that satisfy your sensitive ego? You be the expert who'll define what espresso is and isn't.

[Tex]

Does the OPV affect flavor? here is a thread from CG that seems to imply that Jim from 1st line doesn't think so.

I don't have to read that thread to answer.....yes it does.

Thanks for answering!

 

It's really obvious in several ways.

OK How is it different and how does it happen?

And are you buying that 2 group Lusso?

In the studies of Ernesto Illy, and others, it was determined that espresso is best made within a certain temperature range, using a machine capable of 9 bar pressure. http://nanotech.sc.mahidol.ac.th/i-sense/doc/Complexity_of_Coffee.pdf

[GC7]

Do you really have minimal reading skills too?  You did not answer my question.
Also – start that thread on HB on your own with your claims about SBDU machines.  Please.  I would love to see the responses. It will make my week.
Are you even allowed to post there? 

Sean - this guy apparently has no clue how good espreso is pulled or tastes.  Have you seen any posts of his actually talking about taste?

[Tex]

Do you really have minimal reading skills too?  You did not answer my question.
Also – start that thread on HB on your own with your claims about SBDU machines.  Please.  I would love to see the responses. It will make my week.
Are you even allowed to post there?  

Sean - this guy apparently has no clue how good espreso is pulled or tastes.  Have you seen any posts of his actually talking about taste?

If you've nothing to add to this thread but acrimonious BS, why bother? You ask for facts and then declare the neutral 3rd-party proofs offered to be fraudulent?

C'mon dude, show some self-respect and shut up already! Or, better yet - tell us about your espresso equipment and what you like about it. You do actually own an espreso machine, don't you?
                        :laughing1: :laughing6: :laughing3: :laughing4: :laughing5:

[GC7]

Do you believe YOUR EXPERT SCHULMAN and his thoughts on pink elephants aka SBDU machines?

Yes I own espresso equipment and I'll guarantee my drinks put yours to shame.

Do you ever post about coffee? 

Put your ideas over on HB.  Nah - you won't.

You are a joke.

[Tex]

Do you believe YOUR EXPERT SCHULMAN and his thoughts on pink elephants aka SBDU machines?

Yes I own espresso equipment and I'll guarantee my drinks put yours to shame.

Do you ever post about coffee?

Until your attempt to hijack this thread, it was about coffee and how to make it. You've taken great pains to turn it into an argument about my veracity - without once offering your bona fides for examination. Thus, your complete lack of credibility!

 

[staylor]

Hey dude, try to summarize what you have to say - please. These threads get ridiculously long if we're to quote entire pages of text.

OK, we all play by Shaun's rules from now on, because he's a superior barista and knows more than anyone else in the industry. There, does that satisfy your sensitive ego? You be the expert who'll define what espresso is and isn't.

It's hard to summarize and simultaneously present facts. I leave the short snippy incorrect one liners to you.

"OK, we all play by Shaun's rules from now on, because he's a superior barista and knows more than anyone else in the industry." Nice strawman attempt.

"There, does that satisfy your sensitive ego?" Good attempt at another strawman.

"You be the expert who'll define what espresso is and isn't." Three strawman attemps in one paragraph, doesn't it get old?

[Tex]

Hey dude, try to summarize what you have to say - please. These threads get ridiculously long if we're to quote entire pages of text.

OK, we all play by Shaun's rules from now on, because he's a superior barista and knows more than anyone else in the industry. There, does that satisfy your sensitive ego? You be the expert who'll define what espresso is and isn't.

It's hard to summarize and simultaneously present facts. I leave the short snippy incorrect one liners to you.

"OK, we all play by Shaun's rules from now on, because he's a superior barista and knows more than anyone else in the industry." Nice strawman attempt.

"There, does that satisfy your sensitive ego?" Good attempt at another strawman.

"You be the expert who'll define what espresso is and isn't." Three strawman attemps in one paragraph, doesn't it get old?

Not really, especially since all I get in response is more ego trips from you.

If you don't believe in minimum standards for espresso why bother calling what you produce espresso? Calling Shaun shots espresso must seem demeaning to you?

[GC7]

Do you believe YOUR EXPERT SCHULMAN and his thoughts on pink elephants aka SBDU machines?

Yes I own espresso equipment and I'll guarantee my drinks put yours to shame.

Do you ever post about coffee?

Until your attempt to hijack this thread, it was about coffee and how to make it. You've taken great pains to turn it into an argument about my veracity - without once offering your bona fides for examination. Thus, your complete lack of credibility!

 

You've been exposed Tex. Is there anyone on this entire board who has or will come to agree with your argument?

I've seen no one.  

Your credibility is nill.

[Pyment]

thanks for the link.

[Tex]

Do you believe YOUR EXPERT SCHULMAN and his thoughts on pink elephants aka SBDU machines?

Yes I own espresso equipment and I'll guarantee my drinks put yours to shame.

Do you ever post about coffee?

Until your attempt to hijack this thread, it was about coffee and how to make it. You've taken great pains to turn it into an argument about my veracity - without once offering your bona fides for examination. Thus, your complete lack of credibility!

 

You've been exposed Tex. Is there anyone on this entire board who has or will come to agree with your argument?

I've seen no one.  

Your credibility is nill.

Until now I've asked my friends to stay out of our spats alan. I didn't see any point in them joining in until you actually contributed something about coffee or the process of making it. That is on your agenda at some point, right?

[Tex]

thanks for the link.

It's an old article, but until BW writes an easy to read article with up to date references, it'll have to do.

[GC7]

Do you believe YOUR EXPERT SCHULMAN and his thoughts on pink elephants aka SBDU machines?

Yes I own espresso equipment and I'll guarantee my drinks put yours to shame.

Do you ever post about coffee?

Until your attempt to hijack this thread, it was about coffee and how to make it. You've taken great pains to turn it into an argument about my veracity - without once offering your bona fides for examination. Thus, your complete lack of credibility!

 

You've been exposed Tex. Is there anyone on this entire board who has or will come to agree with your argument?

I've seen no one.  

Your credibility is nill.

Until now I've asked my friends to stay out of our spats alan. I didn't see any point in them joining in until you actually contributed something about coffee or the process of making it. That is on your agenda at some point, right?

What a joke.  Your “friends” need permission to state their opinion?
Did you falsely state that Jim Schulman agreed with your views on SBDU espresso machines?  When I showed the group his true views posted just two days ago all you could do in response was to post a smilie face.  How do you respond to your experts post?  Why did you lie about his views?

[Pyment]

Soooo.... uuuuhhh.....

Was I right that the main reason to go from the SBDU with PID machine to the next cost level - an entry level heat exchanger machine is improved steam? If few stay at that level, then it would seem not.

Are there other quality indicators also introduced at that level?

What (besides steam) makes an Oscar, Bezzera BZ02 and other entry level HX machines worth the additional money?

Look! I'm the one staying on topic!