Author Topic: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!  (Read 90070 times)

Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #630 on: July 31, 2010, 09:23:30 AM »
John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.

Anyone who simply can’t afford a budget above (mostly significantly above) $1K will be able to get good espresso with a SBDU and a commitment to learning basic barista skills. There will be certain sacrifices with temperature stability over multiple shots, satisfying a group and with milk drinks. Those folks are getting the best they can for the money they can afford and I think that's great.  They can of course be very committed to espresso.  

Alternatively, someone might really enjoy espresso while in coffee houses and want to explore the possibility of having it available at home.  They are not totally committed to home espresso or possibly did not do enough research so they go with a less expensive SBDU which many might still seem like a huge investment in coffee equipment.  If and when these folks become “more committed” to making home espresso my guess is that they upgrade if they can afford it.  Maybe these are the reasons Jim Schulman wrote that most enthusiasts who can do so will dump SBDU’s after a year or two.



I just don't get how you equate one's solvency with the need to buy an of-the-shelf espresso machine in order to make better espresso? I guess we grew up in a different era and environment? I could afford to buy a new 'vette in the 60's and did so. I also ran a B stock GTO at Lions & in the mid - late 60's. But my favorite was a 350 ci Chevy II that I built from the ground up. It gave me great satisfaction to beat the factory cars with my budget rocket.

My point is, some folks get a lot of satisfaction from building or rebuilding their own equipment. To them buying a factory prepped machine is just plain boring, when the real fun is knowing the quality of every nut & bolt in a machine. If you don't get that, you'll never understand the attraction of the Gaggia & Silvia to so many folks. And if you've never tried it, you'll never be able to judge the quality of espresso they're capable of producing in the right hands.


GC7

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #631 on: July 31, 2010, 09:49:58 AM »
John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.

Anyone who simply can’t afford a budget above (mostly significantly above) $1K will be able to get good espresso with a SBDU and a commitment to learning basic barista skills. There will be certain sacrifices with temperature stability over multiple shots, satisfying a group and with milk drinks. Those folks are getting the best they can for the money they can afford and I think that's great.  They can of course be very committed to espresso.  

Alternatively, someone might really enjoy espresso while in coffee houses and want to explore the possibility of having it available at home.  They are not totally committed to home espresso or possibly did not do enough research so they go with a less expensive SBDU which many might still seem like a huge investment in coffee equipment.  If and when these folks become “more committed” to making home espresso my guess is that they upgrade if they can afford it.  Maybe these are the reasons Jim Schulman wrote that most enthusiasts who can do so will dump SBDU’s after a year or two.



I just don't get how you equate one's solvency with the need to buy an of-the-shelf espresso machine in order to make better espresso? I guess we grew up in a different era and environment? I could afford to buy a new 'vette in the 60's and did so. I also ran a B stock GTO at Lions & in the mid - late 60's. But my favorite was a 350 ci Chevy II that I built from the ground up. It gave me great satisfaction to beat the factory cars with my budget rocket.

My point is, some folks get a lot of satisfaction from building or rebuilding their own equipment. To them buying a factory prepped machine is just plain boring, when the real fun is knowing the quality of every nut & bolt in a machine. If you don't get that, you'll never understand the attraction of the Gaggia & Silvia to so many folks. And if you've never tried it, you'll never be able to judge the quality of espresso they're capable of producing in the right hands.



Tex
It’s YOU who doesn’t get it.  I said that I have no problem at all with someone buying new or rebuilding anything from a Gaggia up to a five group LM if that is what gives them pleasure.  I will gladly admit that group to people who will be satisfied or get pleasure out of espresso from SBDU machines or any other that they helped to build with their own hands.
What I am absolutely questioning is YOUR blanket statement that the SBDU units are better than machines like a La Spaz V2 or HX machines. Your VASTLY over-hyped claims regarding the capabilities of SBDU units are what is being disputed – nothing more.
PS- you have no idea what machines I have either used or had friends pull shots using for me to sample so why look foolish (again) by trying to do so?

« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 10:03:02 AM by GC7 »

Tex

  • Guest
Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #632 on: July 31, 2010, 10:38:04 AM »
John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.

Anyone who simply can’t afford a budget above (mostly significantly above) $1K will be able to get good espresso with a SBDU and a commitment to learning basic barista skills. There will be certain sacrifices with temperature stability over multiple shots, satisfying a group and with milk drinks. Those folks are getting the best they can for the money they can afford and I think that's great.  They can of course be very committed to espresso.  

Alternatively, someone might really enjoy espresso while in coffee houses and want to explore the possibility of having it available at home.  They are not totally committed to home espresso or possibly did not do enough research so they go with a less expensive SBDU which many might still seem like a huge investment in coffee equipment.  If and when these folks become “more committed” to making home espresso my guess is that they upgrade if they can afford it.  Maybe these are the reasons Jim Schulman wrote that most enthusiasts who can do so will dump SBDU’s after a year or two.



I just don't get how you equate one's solvency with the need to buy an of-the-shelf espresso machine in order to make better espresso? I guess we grew up in a different era and environment? I could afford to buy a new 'vette in the 60's and did so. I also ran a B stock GTO at Lions & in the mid - late 60's. But my favorite was a 350 ci Chevy II that I built from the ground up. It gave me great satisfaction to beat the factory cars with my budget rocket.

My point is, some folks get a lot of satisfaction from building or rebuilding their own equipment. To them buying a factory prepped machine is just plain boring, when the real fun is knowing the quality of every nut & bolt in a machine. If you don't get that, you'll never understand the attraction of the Gaggia & Silvia to so many folks. And if you've never tried it, you'll never be able to judge the quality of espresso they're capable of producing in the right hands.



Tex
It’s YOU who doesn’t get it.  I said that I have no problem at all with someone buying new or rebuilding anything from a Gaggia up to a five group LM if that is what gives them pleasure.  I will gladly admit that group to people who will be satisfied or get pleasure out of espresso from SBDU machines or any other that they helped to build with their own hands.
What I am absolutely questioning is YOUR blanket statement that the SBDU units are better than machines like a La Spaz V2 or HX machines. Your VASTLY over-hyped claims regarding the capabilities of SBDU units are what is being disputed – nothing more.
PS- you have no idea what machines I have either used or had friends pull shots using for me to sample so why look foolish (again) by trying to do so?



You're absurdity is showing, my friend. I've only said the PID'd SBDU is best in certain circumstances and in certain hands. For me, a DB or HX is too much trouble for my day-to-day needs. And given that I roast a half-pound of coffee three times a week, the SBDU machine permits me to tailor the temp/pressure combo with more ease than the HX or DB.

So, I say that given the circumstances, a PID'd Gaggia or Silvia best fits my needs. I've never claimed it's the best for everyone - just me!




GC7

  • Guest
Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #633 on: July 31, 2010, 10:51:25 AM »
You absolutely did not say just for you and furthermore you falsely claimed that Schulman agreed with you.  I showed that claim was wrong as well.

In any event I'm glad that you now back down and say that the PID'ed SBDU is only best for you. Pink Elephants must look good on your kitchen counter.  >:D

Tex

  • Guest
Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #634 on: July 31, 2010, 10:55:29 AM »
You absolutely did not say just for you and furthermore you falsely claimed that Schulman agreed with you.  I showed that claim was wrong as well.

In any event I'm glad that you now back down and say that the PID'ed SBDU is only best for you. Pink Elephants must look good on your kitchen counter.  >:D

Inappropriate comment deleted. 8)

edited: I rate espresso machines by the quality of the coffee they make, not the statement they make about my net worth.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 10:58:43 AM by Tex »

GC7

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #635 on: July 31, 2010, 11:20:42 AM »
You absolutely did not say just for you and furthermore you falsely claimed that Schulman agreed with you.  I showed that claim was wrong as well.

In any event I'm glad that you now back down and say that the PID'ed SBDU is only best for you. Pink Elephants must look good on your kitchen counter.  >:D

Inappropriate comment deleted. 8)

edited: I rate espresso machines by the quality of the coffee they make, not the statement they make about my net worth.

I'm glad we agree about your edit regarding coffee quality. That's why your over hyped claims were rebuked by most everyone including your expert Schulman.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 11:26:19 AM by GC7 »

Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #636 on: July 31, 2010, 11:46:05 AM »
You absolutely did not say just for you and furthermore you falsely claimed that Schulman agreed with you.  I showed that claim was wrong as well.

In any event I'm glad that you now back down and say that the PID'ed SBDU is only best for you. Pink Elephants must look good on your kitchen counter.  >:D

Inappropriate comment deleted. 8)

edited: I rate espresso machines by the quality of the coffee they make, not the statement they make about my net worth.

I'm glad we agree about your edit regarding coffee quality. That's why your over hyped claims were rebuked by most everyone including your expert Schulman.

Now why would you say everyone? Your use of hyperbole is an indicator of your doubts about your own beliefs, otherwise you'd stick to the point. EVERYONE? HA!


Edited: You have no credibility in this discussion because you offer nothing but unfounded criticism.

With Shaun and me, at least one can understand where each other is coming from - I'm a minimalist with experience using every type of machine made. Shaun is an avant garde barista who likes to deconstruct processes and enjoys doing things beyond the norm. I may not agree with his positions, but at least I can understand where he's coming from.

You offer nothing except negativism. What espresso machine do you use and why do you like it? What's your background in anything relating to coffee? Why should anyone believe what you say if you're hiding being a cloak of anonymity? As I said, you're lacking credibility in this discussion!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 12:27:12 PM by Tex »

Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #637 on: July 31, 2010, 01:31:38 PM »

You were calling me out on my consistency skills, I retorted, with facts. Here's your chance to impress your facts upon me with the factual account of the largest amount of consistent shots you've pulled in a day __________, in a week ____________, in a year __________? What's that, did I just hear crickets over there, is that silence? Silence on your consistency position? Call me out and you're gonna get a reply and that reply won't let you off the hook for the nonsense you've been scribbling out. I think the difference between us might be that I'll admit when I'm guessing, or when I just don't know.

snipped

Quantity is no indicator of quality. All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos and a few videos of badly over-extracted shots. In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?).

I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F.  While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled.

If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. But, like I've always told folks, "Don't let anyone tell you what you like in the cup."

« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 01:39:20 PM by Tex »

GC7

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #638 on: July 31, 2010, 02:12:07 PM »
Tex - say what you will about me. You are just an unknown irritant to me so we're even. However - do you care about what your expert says about SBDU's?

Here is what your EXPERT Schulman advised somone asking about a SBDU (QM Alexia) just YESTERDAY QUOTED

http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html

"You have a solid grinder in the Cunill, which puts you well ahead of the game.

As a beginner, you won't just be inconsistent, you'll also be prone to pay too much attention to specs, to make mountains out of molehills, and to lose perspective.

-- The contribution of PID control to shot quality is negligible when compared to the normal controls on commercial level machines (pressure stats or vapor bulbs). They are a big deal compared to the miserable bimetallic button stats on home machines, but once you get into the 1K and above range, they are merely convenience items.

-- Much more important is deciding on a large single boiler versus an entry level HX. Both make great espresso, but the HX will also steam fast, while the large single boilers take a lot of time to switch over. Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. Everybody buys an HX or double boiler within a year or two. Apparently waiting forever to steam even once a month eventually gets tired. My advice is to look into an NS Oscar, Bezzera, Expobar and any other entry level HX. Board members tend to talk up the large single boilers as "purist machines;" but being virtuous is cheap when it's just talk and the single boiler pink elephants is on someone else's counter. So think long and hard about how purist you'll want to be next year."

So - say what you will about me but your expert makes my point.  I agree wth Schulman. Do you?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 02:48:18 PM by GC7 »

Tex

  • Guest
Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #639 on: July 31, 2010, 02:16:27 PM »
You absolutely did not say just for you and furthermore you falsely claimed that Schulman agreed with you.  I showed that claim was wrong as well.

In any event I'm glad that you now back down and say that the PID'ed SBDU is only best for you. Pink Elephants must look good on your kitchen counter.  >:D


Inappropriate comment deleted. 8)

edited: I rate espresso machines by the quality of the coffee they make, not the statement they make about my net worth.


I'm glad we agree about your edit regarding coffee quality. That's why your over hyped claims were rebuked by most everyone including your expert Schulman.


Now why would you say everyone? Your use of hyperbole is an indicator of your doubts about your own beliefs, otherwise you'd stick to the point. EVERYONE? HA!


Edited: You have no once again.

Here is what your EXPERT Schulman advised somone asking about a SBDU (QM Alexia) just YESTERDAY QUOTED

http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html

"You have a solid grinder in the Cunill, which puts you well ahead of the game.

As a beginner, you won't just be inconsistent, you'll also be prone to pay too much attention to specs, to make mountains out of molehills, and to lose perspective.

-- The contribution of PID control to shot quality is negligible when compared to the normal controls on commercial level machines (pressure stats or vapor bulbs). They are a big deal compared to the miserable bimetallic button stats on home machines, but once you get into the 1K and above range, they are merely convenience items.

-- Much more important is deciding on a large single boiler versus an entry level HX. Both make great espresso, but the HX will also steam fast, while the large single boilers take a lot of time to switch over. Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. Everybody buys an HX or double boiler within a year or two. Apparently waiting forever to steam even once a month eventually gets tired. My advice is to look into an NS Oscar, Bezzera, Expobar and any other entry level HX. Board members tend to talk up the large single boilers as "purist machines;" but being virtuous is cheap when it's just talk and the single boiler pink elephants is on someone else's counter. So think long and hard about how purist you'll want to be next year."

So - say what you will about me but your expert makes my point.  I agree wth Schulman. Do you?


So all you can do is quote others? C'mon, tell us about your own espresso-making experiences so we can gauge your credibility.

Offline staylor

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #640 on: July 31, 2010, 02:20:26 PM »

You were calling me out on my consistency skills, I retorted, with facts. Here's your chance to impress your facts upon me with the factual account of the largest amount of consistent shots you've pulled in a day __________, in a week ____________, in a year __________? What's that, did I just hear crickets over there, is that silence? Silence on your consistency position? Call me out and you're gonna get a reply and that reply won't let you off the hook for the nonsense you've been scribbling out. I think the difference between us might be that I'll admit when I'm guessing, or when I just don't know.

snipped

Quantity is no indicator of quality. All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos and a few videos of badly over-extracted shots. In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?).

I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F.  While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled.

If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. But, like I've always told folks, "Don't let anyone tell you what you like in the cup."



There you go again, crafting sentences. You commented on consistency earlier, I stated I've pulled hundreds of shots back to back in a day in a demanding retail environment, each shot a duplicate of the shot previous to it (within reason). I'm not sure how much more you want to argue your nonsensical position on consistency. I've done it, loads of it. Consistency was my middle name. Then I questioned yours...

There you go again, crafting sentences to create something that is false or minimalizing by stating "All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos". You've probably seen well over 100 of my latte art photos because you have participated in threads where they sit next to or very near your own comments. Maybe your hands have well over 50 fingers per hand... then I guess you would be getting closer to stating fact.

There you go again, manipulating comments as if they were fact. You haven't just seen 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots', you've seen quite a few videos of mine which show correctly extracted shots, you will have also seen some great pours, mediocre pours, decent pours, you've seen pre-shot weights, post shot weights, crema results, you've seen milk steam, milk pours and lots of other stuff. That's just fact. But now I'll get on to your comment on my badly over-extracted shots... do you know what over-extracted means? Really? How about we get it out in the open so there's no misunderstanding other than your attempt to throw a boogieman term at my videos, how about this definition: "Over-extraction occurs when too many coffee solids are extracted, resulting in a strong, harsh flavor. The visual signs are a low-volume extraction having a dark, thin crema. A dark "halo" at the edge of the cup is another classic indictor of an over-extraction, or of brew water that is too hot." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. How about this definition: "Over Extracted: term used to describe coffee or espresso that has had brew water exposed to ground coffee for too long. Over extracted espresso and coffee can taste bitter or burnt." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. Sad.

Are you kidding, this is absurd... "In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?)." Dude, I don't need your defense, what I need is for you to state fact not distort reality.

Wait a minute here... is this a retraction of your earlier statement where you pronounced to the world as fact that the only thing which should ever be changed is grind - nothing else gets changed but grind... "I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F.  While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled. " Now you are playing with temp and pressure, madness, want to throw in dose weight while you are at it, or some other variables other than just grind, but that would be silly, right?

What fact checking tool did you use to get this one put together "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. " Which minority would that be, the minority that makes espresso by taking into account the espresso making process? And what exactly is your point when you say "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you." Have you a list of 'all the different factors' that I'm excessively employing that you don't? Or are we back to you just playing with grind and only grind and I'm doing wacky things like grind... and gasp... amount of grams of beans for a shot... or can you believe it he just... observed the flow in order to know when to kill a shot... etc, etc, etc... the espresso making process, etc.

GC7

  • Guest
Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #641 on: July 31, 2010, 02:21:03 PM »
What do you think of Schulman's statement?

You are the one with no credibility.

Snake-oil salesmen or idiot - you make the call!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 02:23:19 PM by GC7 »

ecc

  • Guest
Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #642 on: July 31, 2010, 02:25:22 PM »
I think Jim Schulman is obviously wrong;  it's white elephant...  :violent5:

I don't think Jim is referring to the Alexia as an inferior machine here, he is simply pointing out the strength of the call to teh dairy.

GC7

  • Guest
Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #643 on: July 31, 2010, 02:47:15 PM »
ECC- The Alexia is a fine machine made by a great company.  And that is part of the point.  Schulman STILL calls them pink elephants that he claims anyone with the means will replace within a year or two.  That’s a top of the line SBDU!  This is the expert that Tex called into play with false claims about his recommendations. I simply showed that as of two days ago his expert has the same view of SBDU machines as I do!  :o

Tex

  • Guest
Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #644 on: July 31, 2010, 03:11:25 PM »

You were calling me out on my consistency skills, I retorted, with facts. Here's your chance to impress your facts upon me with the factual account of the largest amount of consistent shots you've pulled in a day __________, in a week ____________, in a year __________? What's that, did I just hear crickets over there, is that silence? Silence on your consistency position? Call me out and you're gonna get a reply and that reply won't let you off the hook for the nonsense you've been scribbling out. I think the difference between us might be that I'll admit when I'm guessing, or when I just don't know.

snipped

Quantity is no indicator of quality. All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos and a few videos of badly over-extracted shots. In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?).

I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F.  While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled.

If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. But, like I've always told folks, "Don't let anyone tell you what you like in the cup."



There you go again, crafting sentences. You commented on consistency earlier, I stated I've pulled hundreds of shots back to back in a day in a demanding retail environment, each shot a duplicate of the shot previous to it (within reason). I'm not sure how much more you want to argue your nonsensical position on consistency. I've done it, loads of it. Consistency was my middle name. Then I questioned yours...

There you go again, crafting sentences to create something that is false or minimalizing by stating "All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos". You've probably seen well over 100 of my latte art photos because you have participated in threads where they sit next to or very near your own comments. Maybe your hands have well over 50 fingers per hand... then I guess you would be getting closer to stating fact.

There you go again, manipulating comments as if they were fact. You haven't just seen 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots', you've seen quite a few videos of mine which show correctly extracted shots, you will have also seen some great pours, mediocre pours, decent pours, you've seen pre-shot weights, post shot weights, crema results, you've seen milk steam, milk pours and lots of other stuff. That's just fact. But now I'll get on to your comment on my badly over-extracted shots... do you know what over-extracted means? Really? How about we get it out in the open so there's no misunderstanding other than your attempt to throw a boogieman term at my videos, how about this definition: "Over-extraction occurs when too many coffee solids are extracted, resulting in a strong, harsh flavor. The visual signs are a low-volume extraction having a dark, thin crema. A dark "halo" at the edge of the cup is another classic indictor of an over-extraction, or of brew water that is too hot." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. How about this definition: "Over Extracted: term used to describe coffee or espresso that has had brew water exposed to ground coffee for too long. Over extracted espresso and coffee can taste bitter or burnt." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. Sad.

Are you kidding, this is absurd... "In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?)." Dude, I don't need your defense, what I need is for you to state fact not distort reality.

Wait a minute here... is this a retraction of your earlier statement where you pronounced to the world as fact that the only thing which should ever be changed is grind - nothing else gets changed but grind... "I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F.  While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled. " Now you are playing with temp and pressure, madness, want to throw in dose weight while you are at it, or some other variables other than just grind, but that would be silly, right?

What fact checking tool did you use to get this one put together "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. " Which minority would that be, the minority that makes espresso by taking into account the espresso making process? And what exactly is your point when you say "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you." Have you a list of 'all the different factors' that I'm excessively employing that you don't? Or are we back to you just playing with grind and only grind and I'm doing wacky things like grind... and gasp... amount of grams of beans for a shot... or can you believe it he just... observed the flow in order to know when to kill a shot... etc, etc, etc... the espresso making process, etc.

Geez guy, how about an executive summary next time?

What you're doing with those slooow shots may be interesting to look at, but it's not espresso. In fact, it's more akin to what is made with the steam toys than espresso as it's known throughout the world: You show no concern for proper pressure & extraction.

Espresso is a drink made within pressure, temperature, and time constraints. You're trying to redefine espresso to suit your interests, rather than learning to make it within the existing norms. You can call it whatever you want, but it ain't espresso unless you follow the rules.