Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[staylor]

The idea is to reduce variables to constants. Using the same dose of coffee and the same tamp, and having a fixed flow of water, the only variable is grind coarseness. Nothing should change from shot to shot other than the grind.

Uhmmmm, no. The idea is to understand the variables and try to control them so they are relatively constant, as you manipulate one variable against the other. This may mean (for the more advanced shot puller) adjusting grind, dose and tamp in the same shot as compared to the previous shot.

Your advice of nothing should change from shot to shot other than grind is so spectacularly bad I swallowed twice while my eyes were bugging out as I read it. If that is your approach to espresso you are missing a lot. Your only adjust grind advice is so one-dimensional I find it hard to believe that you are willing to type it and hit sent.

Based on your statements I believe you're the antithesis of what baristas should strive to achieve. Consistency from shot to shot is the hallmark of a professional in any field. It's the  prima donna who strives for individuality at the expense of professional standards, trying to establish their superiority based on superfluous differences.

You and I have different standards, that's all. Good luck in finding that nirvana of coffeedom that you so desperately seek.

Consistency... I can pull a thousand shots in a row and recreate each shot before it. How do I know? I've done it... daily... in my own shop... for paying customers. Have you? So does that make me the antithesis of antithesis of antithesis of what baristas should strive for?

You are casually throwing out the professional barista card and professional standards, I forget, but you can remind me... exactly how many years have you worked in a demanding retail coffee environment driving a three group? Don't play the consistency card with me dude, I've paid dues you will never pay.

The growth of espresso as a drink and as an industry capable of more has been primarily due to visionaries, seekers, explorers, mad scientists, expanders, dreamers, and people unhappy with the status quo. Espresso of today and espresso of 8yrs ago is very, very different due to many factors including higher quality greens standards and blending techniques.

You and I do have different standards. It's called evolution.

[staylor]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I just saw your reply Tex, is that some kind of joke?

No, but it has to be read in context. Some of us believe that each coffee has it's own sweet spot of a temperature. If one accepts this as true, then it follows that it's far easier to manipulate the temp of a SBDU machine than either a HX or DB.

A PID'd SBDU machine can be drained, temp reset, and temp restabilized much faster and with less effort than the other machines. If the SBDU machine is properly tuned and the user knows how to use the machine it's the better machine UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.

For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast. For them I say fine - it works for you. Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans - to them I say don't overlook the simplicity of the SBDU.

Read in context... are you kidding me... these are your words not mine "the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer".

If you were referring only to the SBDU's ability to show a different thermal property on a counter once it is turned off, drained, refilled, reset, and temp stabilized then perhaps bring that into the discussion.

If you think the strong point of an SBDU is it's thermal juggling act and that beans have heat sweet spots of beans and that the SBDU can change temperatures then talk about that. In my opinion, your general statement of SBDU's are 'the best' way to go to manage heat is merely your opinion based on what you like and use.

You are far to quick to make your generalized comments appear as fact, case in point... "For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast." Those folks... I used to own a DB, so I guess that would make me one of 'those folks' and yet I tweaked my temps on my DB. Does that mean I was an anomaly because I tweaked my temps?

"Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans" who exactly is the 'some of us' club? Are you the president and there's a whole pile of us that didn't get invited to the tune and tweak party?

As I've said, you and I have different standards. Yours are by no means mainstream, while I try to work within the norms of the 4 M's. Good luck with the path you've chosen!

Puhhhhhllllleeeeeeeese.

[Tex]

It's the  prima donna who strives for individuality at the expense of professional standards, trying to establish their superiority based on superfluous differences.

Who picks standards and who decides what is superfluous and what isn't?

Espresso has more potential that a lot of people will either access or even attempt to access. 

And I do understand that some are trying to access that potential, more power to them! But they're not mainstream in the espresso world, and I doubt they'll ever achieve their goals. But don't stop trying - every field has it's mavericks and I for one enjoy their efforts.

Just don't expect to convert mainstream guys like me into the Zen Buddhist philosophy of coffee making. Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Mechanics was about my limit into that arena.

[John F]

Just don't expect to convert mainstream guys like me into the Zen Buddhist philosophy of coffee making.

I would never do that.

I do not try (any more)  to get guys that are in love with Mc D's or DD coffee to understand anything outside their reality either.

But check this out, if they try to tell me Mc D's coffee is better than my specialty grade, meticulously cupped, and precision roasted coffee... I sort of know they are both right and wrong at the same time. They are right because they have individual taste and it's not in my ability to tell them what they prefer in their cups. But they are wrong because obviously, they are just wrong.

[Tex]

The idea is to reduce variables to constants. Using the same dose of coffee and the same tamp, and having a fixed flow of water, the only variable is grind coarseness. Nothing should change from shot to shot other than the grind.

Uhmmmm, no. The idea is to understand the variables and try to control them so they are relatively constant, as you manipulate one variable against the other. This may mean (for the more advanced shot puller) adjusting grind, dose and tamp in the same shot as compared to the previous shot.

Your advice of nothing should change from shot to shot other than grind is so spectacularly bad I swallowed twice while my eyes were bugging out as I read it. If that is your approach to espresso you are missing a lot. Your only adjust grind advice is so one-dimensional I find it hard to believe that you are willing to type it and hit sent.

Based on your statements I believe you're the antithesis of what baristas should strive to achieve. Consistency from shot to shot is the hallmark of a professional in any field. It's the  prima donna who strives for individuality at the expense of professional standards, trying to establish their superiority based on superfluous differences.

You and I have different standards, that's all. Good luck in finding that nirvana of coffeedom that you so desperately seek.

Consistency... I can pull a thousand shots in a row and recreate each shot before it. How do I know? I've done it... daily... in my own shop... for paying customers. Have you? So does that make me the antithesis of antithesis of antithesis of what baristas should strive for?

You are casually throwing out the professional barista card and professional standards, I forget, but you can remind me... exactly how many years have you worked in a demanding retail coffee environment driving a three group? Don't play the consistency card with me dude, I've paid dues you will never pay.

The growth of espresso as a drink and as an industry capable of more has been primarily due to visionaries, seekers, explorers, mad scientists, expanders, dreamers, and people unhappy with the status quo. Espresso of today and espresso of 8yrs ago is very, very different due to many factors including higher quality greens standards and blending techniques.

You and I do have different standards. It's called evolution.

Yeah Shaun, it was avant-garde baristas like you that drove the success of coffee for the past 30 years, not Starbuck's marketing skill. I'll admit there's a huge void between what they sell and the best we strive for. But to almost all of the known espresso market, people like you aren't even a pimple on the butt of a good cappuccino.

So, work on your skills and try to impress a select panel of coffee mavens? Who cares?

If what you do can't be translated into teaching points for the benefit of all baristas willing to learn new skills, what's the point? You're making espresso so esoteric that you're running the risk of becoming irrelevant to the mainstream.

[Tex]

Just don't expect to convert mainstream guys like me into the Zen Buddhist philosophy of coffee making.

I would never do that.

I do not try (any more)  to get guys that are in love with Mc D's or DD coffee to understand anything outside their reality either.

But check this out, if they try to tell me Mc D's coffee is better than my specialty grade, meticulously cupped, and precision roasted coffee... I sort of know they are both right and wrong at the same time. They are right because they have individual taste and it's not in my ability to tell them what they prefer in their cups. But they are wrong because obviously, they are just wrong.

See, we do agree from time to time John! Everyone has their own context through which they judge the world. To some Mickey D's is a gourmet heaven. To me it's a cess pit! It's not a matter of who's right or wrong, is it? It's about understanding that everyone doesn't see things through the same contextual lenses.

[John F]

You're making espresso so esoteric that you're running the risk of becoming irrelevant to the mainstream.

I know you are talking to Staylor, but can you rephrase the above statement for those following along? I don't have any idea what that sentence is saying.

[Tex]

You're making espresso so esoteric that you're running the risk of becoming irrelevant to the mainstream.

I know you are talking to Staylor, but can you rephrase the above statement for those following along? I don't have any idea what that sentence is saying.

Esoteric in regard to making the process such an insiders secret hand shake kind of thing, that only insiders can comprehend what you're saying. That was a common ploy of the self-improvement movement of the 70's & 80's; use buzz words so the uninitiated will be in awe of the graduates.

[John F]

Esoteric in regard to making the process such an insiders secret hand shake kind of thing, that only insiders can comprehend what you're saying.

Hmmmmm......


I'm tempted to do a few hundred words here.

Maybe for now just a simplified idea.

Perhaps every pursuit worthwhile has a few different levels we can participate at. Maybe the mainstream BBQ'ers are using Webbers and would say those that are dropping big money on heavy ceramics or commercial salamanders and talking about abnormal stuff like lump coal are acting like prima donnas.

Maybe the mainstream just hasn't tried to access the forums or water coolers where the next level bbq guys are talking about salamanders or they would learn there is no secret handshake....you just have to want to see what is going on over there and join in.

The way I see it there is nothing mainstream about espresso. From the very start we are getting involved in an esoteric exercise. Even baby steps like steam toys take you miles away from mainstream "expresso" and things only spiral away from there. Sort of like there are no mainstream newbie single malts.  Some things lend themselves to advancing and further exploration.

Coffee is as deep as we care to explore....Most people stop at Mr. coffee machines at home and Starbucks on the run. Maybe a few get wild and buy a french press and a $40 grinder thinking they are real fanatics.  

[staylor]

Consistency... I can pull a thousand shots in a row and recreate each shot before it. How do I know? I've done it... daily... in my own shop... for paying customers. Have you? So does that make me the antithesis of antithesis of antithesis of what baristas should strive for?

You are casually throwing out the professional barista card and professional standards, I forget, but you can remind me... exactly how many years have you worked in a demanding retail coffee environment driving a three group? Don't play the consistency card with me dude, I've paid dues you will never pay.

The growth of espresso as a drink and as an industry capable of more has been primarily due to visionaries, seekers, explorers, mad scientists, expanders, dreamers, and people unhappy with the status quo. Espresso of today and espresso of 8yrs ago is very, very different due to many factors including higher quality greens standards and blending techniques.

You and I do have different standards. It's called evolution.

Yeah Shaun, it was avant-garde baristas like you that drove the success of coffee for the past 30 years, not Starbuck's marketing skill. I'll admit there's a huge void between what they sell and the best we strive for. But to almost all of the known espresso market, people like you aren't even a pimple on the butt of a good cappuccino.

So, work on your skills and try to impress a select panel of coffee mavens? Who cares?

If what you do can't be translated into teaching points for the benefit of all baristas willing to learn new skills, what's the point? You're making espresso so esoteric that you're running the risk of becoming irrelevant to the mainstream.

You were calling me out on my consistency skills, I retorted, with facts. Here's your chance to impress your facts upon me with the factual account of the largest amount of consistent shots you've pulled in a day __________, in a week ____________, in a year __________? What's that, did I just hear crickets over there, is that silence? Silence on your consistency position? Call me out and you're gonna get a reply and that reply won't let you off the hook for the nonsense you've been scribbling out. I think the difference between us might be that I'll admit when I'm guessing, or when I just don't know.

Since it seems you carefully choose to sidestep your own nonsense when you are called on it, I'll get on to your most recent nonsense in this post...

This debate wasn't about the success of coffee, that growth curve started back around WWII with freeze dried. But that was a pretty slick (not) attempt at redirecting things again, because of course I claimed the success of coffee is because of guys like me and my 3 x t-shirts that say "I'm an avant-garde barista", I know I claimed that, wait I'm going back through the thread... uhmmm, huh, it's not there anymore, I'm sure I claimed the success of coffee is directly related to my efforts. Hey, maybe you could take a look and let me know where it went. Get back to me on that one. Really, get back to me, or I can wait for the crickets again.

"So, work on your skills and try to impress a select panel of coffee mavens? Who cares?" I explain what I do. I explain what the current industry does. I explain when someone is spouting nonsense. Maybe you forgot to put in an order for a coffee maven t-shirt and apparently you don't care, maybe that's it.

"If what you do can't be translated into teaching points for the benefit of all baristas willing to learn new skills, what's the point?" Interesting approach, quite a diversion from only a page ago where your main teaching point was... everything has to stay the same, except the grind - only ever change the grind. You need some new strawman skills because what you've got going is so predictable bad that it's boring having to keep wading through it. The same old attempt at making statements as if they are factual and then throwing enough huffing and puffing behind it that somehow it might gain traction, it's Comedy Central when reading back through some of the things you have stated as fact about espresso. But since it appears you are hesitant to move away from your predictable (and boring a long time ago) tactic of writing carefully crafted sentences to appear factual I will yet again retort with actual facts... What I do can and has been translated into teaching points, for the benefits of baristas WILLING TO LEARN new skills. Those aren't secret abilities by the way, in fact today my son taught me how to turn some lego into a laser blaster, a machinist taught me how to approach a particular problem via several different paths and I'm hoping to teach someone to stop writing opinion as fact.

"You're making espresso so esoteric that you're running the risk of becoming irrelevant to the mainstream." About that esoteric statement, that could have some factual weight to it as I do adjust more things than just my grind - like a lot of professionals and passionate amateurs do, all over the world. Is that what you mean by esoteric, and what risk am I'm running again?

Edited - for spelling.

[GC7]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact.  Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler).  BS!!!!!!!!!

I'm in total agreement GC7.

Thank you.  SBDU units can make really fine espresso and are certainly a good choice for those whose budgets and commitment to espresso are not as great as some others.  BUT - to claim they are the very best choice is just wrong and needs to be challenged.

[John F]

SBDU units can make really fine espresso and are certainly a good choice for those whose budgets and commitment to espresso are not as great as some others. BUT - to claim they are the very best choice is just wrong and needs to be challenged.

Irony... it's funny.  

While I agree with your point towards Tex I think you are doing a similar thing here....but it's whatever.

[GC7]

John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.

Anyone who simply can’t afford a budget above (mostly significantly above) $1K will be able to get good espresso with a SBDU and a commitment to learning basic barista skills. There will be certain sacrifices with temperature stability over multiple shots, satisfying a group and with milk drinks. Those folks are getting the best they can for the money they can afford and I think that's great.  They can of course be very committed to espresso.  

Alternatively, someone might really enjoy espresso while in coffee houses and want to explore the possibility of having it available at home.  They are not totally committed to home espresso or possibly did not do enough research so they go with a less expensive SBDU which many might still seem like a huge investment in coffee equipment.  If and when these folks become “more committed” to making home espresso my guess is that they upgrade if they can afford it.  Maybe these are the reasons Jim Schulman wrote that most enthusiasts who can do so will dump SBDU’s after a year or two.

[John F]

John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.

I was saying something like; we can't know/measure how committed somebody is to espresso by their machines ability to steam milk.

 

[GC7]

John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.

I was saying something like; we can't know/measure how committed somebody is to espresso by their machines ability to steam milk.

 

Absolutely agree. I am certainly not being judgemental of anyone or their "committment" and hope my explaination above clarifies a bit.