Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[Tex]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact.  Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler).  BS!!!!!!!!!

And you're an argumentative jerk. I suggest you look on Home Barista and you'll find that Jim Schulman and others agree with me that a SBDU machine is best for making espresso with various SO beans. Now shut up and go away!

And for some anonymous nimrod to question my motives is the height of absurdity!

Good answer Tex.  Shows your intelligence and debating skills.
With statements like the one I quoted you are one of two things
1-   A snake-oil salesman totally over-hyping what are useful machines
2-   A stupid idiot who knows nothing about espresso machines
Take your pick

ps - Scchulman said no such thing in the context you want it to look like. What kind of machine does Schulman use?  Jerk

His context was that given the ease with which one can change their brew temp, the small boiler SBDU machines are preferable as a day-to-day machine. The boiler on a SBDU machine can be drawn down, temp changed, and restabilized in a matter of minutes. To do the same thing with a DB or HX is a time consuming prospect.

And if you see any mention of a Gaggia in what I posted earlier you're delusional. You just like to argue with everything I say, but posit nothing of your own. I'm guessing that you're alan from a.c & a-c-m; you pull the same BS.

[GC7]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact.  Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler).  BS!!!!!!!!!

And you're an argumentative jerk. I suggest you look on Home Barista and you'll find that Jim Schulman and others agree with me that a SBDU machine is best for making espresso with various SO beans. Now shut up and go away!

And for some anonymous nimrod to question my motives is the height of absurdity!

Good answer Tex.  Shows your intelligence and debating skills.
With statements like the one I quoted you are one of two things
1-   A snake-oil salesman totally over-hyping what are useful machines
2-   A stupid idiot who knows nothing about espresso machines
Take your pick

ps - Scchulman said no such thing in the context you want it to look like. What kind of machine does Schulman use?  Jerk

His context was that given the ease with which one can change their brew temp, the small boiler SBDU machines are preferable as a day-to-day machine. The boiler on a SBDU machine can be drawn down, temp changed, and restabilized in a matter of minutes. To do the same thing with a DB or HX is a time consuming prospect.

And if you see any mention of a Gaggia in what I posted earlier you're delusional. You just like to argue with everything I say, but posit nothing of your own. I'm guessing that you're alan from a.c & a-c-m; you pull the same BS.

Still a BS nonsense answer. Your words betray you and I ask who is argumentative – YOU!

So is it
1-   Snake-oil salesmen
2-   Idiot
?

[Tex]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact.  Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler).  BS!!!!!!!!!

And you're an argumentative jerk. I suggest you look on Home Barista and you'll find that Jim Schulman and others agree with me that a SBDU machine is best for making espresso with various SO beans. Now shut up and go away!

And for some anonymous nimrod to question my motives is the height of absurdity!

Good answer Tex.  Shows your intelligence and debating skills.
With statements like the one I quoted you are one of two things
1-   A snake-oil salesman totally over-hyping what are useful machines
2-   A stupid idiot who knows nothing about espresso machines
Take your pick

ps - Scchulman said no such thing in the context you want it to look like. What kind of machine does Schulman use?  Jerk

His context was that given the ease with which one can change their brew temp, the small boiler SBDU machines are preferable as a day-to-day machine. The boiler on a SBDU machine can be drawn down, temp changed, and restabilized in a matter of minutes. To do the same thing with a DB or HX is a time consuming prospect.

And if you see any mention of a Gaggia in what I posted earlier you're delusional. You just like to argue with everything I say, but posit nothing of your own. I'm guessing that you're alan from a.c & a-c-m; you pull the same BS.

Still a BS nonsense answer. Your words betray you and I ask who is argumentative – YOU!

So is it
1-   Snake-oil salesmen
2-   Idiot
?

 

[Pyment]

popcorn! Peanuts! Soda Pop!



Glad I resurrected this thread.

(Some real opportunity to make some cash)

[GC7]

Tex


Here is what your EXPERT Schulman advised somone asking about a SBDU (QM Alexia) just YESTERDAY QUOTED

http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html

"You have a solid grinder in the Cunill, which puts you well ahead of the game.

As a beginner, you won't just be inconsistent, you'll also be prone to pay too much attention to specs, to make mountains out of molehills, and to lose perspective.

-- The contribution of PID control to shot quality is negligible when compared to the normal controls on commercial level machines (pressure stats or vapor bulbs). They are a big deal compared to the miserable bimetallic button stats on home machines, but once you get into the 1K and above range, they are merely convenience items.

-- Much more important is deciding on a large single boiler versus an entry level HX. Both make great espresso, but the HX will also steam fast, while the large single boilers take a lot of time to switch over. Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. Everybody buys an HX or double boiler within a year or two. Apparently waiting forever to steam even once a month eventually gets tired. My advice is to look into an NS Oscar, Bezzera, Expobar and any other entry level HX. Board members tend to talk up the large single boilers as "purist machines;" but being virtuous is cheap when it's just talk and the single boiler pink elephants is on someone else's counter. So think long and hard about how purist you'll want to be next year."

You keep making over-hyped stupid claims about SBDU machines and you will get responses. I don’t want some naive espresso enthusiast to actually believe that stuff you spew out here.

Schulman calls SBDU machiness "pink elephants" that belong on someone elses counter!

[Tex]

Tex


Here is what your EXPERT Schulman advised somone asking about a SBDU (QM Alexia) just YESTERDAY QUOTED

http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html

"You have a solid grinder in the Cunill, which puts you well ahead of the game.

As a beginner, you won't just be inconsistent, you'll also be prone to pay too much attention to specs, to make mountains out of molehills, and to lose perspective.

-- The contribution of PID control to shot quality is negligible when compared to the normal controls on commercial level machines (pressure stats or vapor bulbs). They are a big deal compared to the miserable bimetallic button stats on home machines, but once you get into the 1K and above range, they are merely convenience items.

-- Much more important is deciding on a large single boiler versus an entry level HX. Both make great espresso, but the HX will also steam fast, while the large single boilers take a lot of time to switch over. Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. Everybody buys an HX or double boiler within a year or two. Apparently waiting forever to steam even once a month eventually gets tired. My advice is to look into an NS Oscar, Bezzera, Expobar and any other entry level HX. Board members tend to talk up the large single boilers as "purist machines;" but being virtuous is cheap when it's just talk and the single boiler pink elephants is on someone else's counter. So think long and hard about how purist you'll want to be next year."

You keep making over-hyped stupid claims about SBDU machines and you will get responses. I don’t want some naive espresso enthusiast to actually believe that stuff you spew out here.

Schulman calls SBDU machiness "pink elephants" that belong on someone elses counter!

 

[staylor]

well just to dredge up an old thread. It seems that you can separate the espresso journey into steps (excluding steam toys).

Step 1 - Single boiler dual use systems. I suppose one should look for units that can be upgraded to step 2 use. The most famous entries at this level would be the Gaggia Classic/Baby series and the Rancilio Silvia. They have good internals and record of durability. The 3 way solenoid is a nicity that most seem to value. There are other entries that can be found for a good price - Isomac Venus/Maverick/Giada Le'Lit PL041, . Skill is needed to get extraction at the proper temp. Usually requiring temp surfing.

Step 2 - This is the reason to be somewhat careful about the machine one purchases as a step 1 unit. If you are somewhat mechanical (or know someone who is), you can upgrade some of the SBDU's with a PID to get a more consistent brew temp. Some people buy SBDU's with the intent of adding a PID right away and some buy units already PID'd. I get the impression that you want a unit with pretty good innards to make it worthy of the additional investment of time and $$. Some people can be quite happy for a long time with this kind of unit.  We will have to see how long B/Java stays here after his latest round of upgrade-itis.

BTW, I am surprized that B/Java (Mr happy-with-stock-Silvia) was able to go through this little episode of upgrading with little fanfare and less humor at his expense. B/upgrader got off easy this time around.

Step 3 - Heat exchanger seems to be the next step (cost wise at least). The motivator for moving to this step is "need for steam". People seem to get frustrated when trying to make a bunch of milk drinks in a row and want the instant steam provided by an HX machine. Temp surfing as done with this machine seems a lot easier and consistent than on a SBDU unit.

Step 4 - Double boiler units with separate boilers for steam and brewing seem to give the ultimate control over steam and brew temps. For most this is at a much higher $$.

then there are lever machines that really don't fit the progression.

Do I have it right?

I think that's a good overview, but rather than call it steps in a journey I would simply call them 'machine categories' for lack of a better term. Steps to me indicates a logical progression, when in fact the double boiler units may not be a necessary progression for someone who feels they are getting what they want in the previous step and step 1 doesn't seem like a logical starting point for a person with a large budget.

Generally the category a person finds themselves in is dictated by budget. If a person had an infinite amount of money I don't see the need to start at step 1 to work through a progression of frustration and I would recommend for them to go to a double boiler unit just to control the variables better and provide greater entertainment capacity/experimentation capacity. If the unlimited budget person wanted to 'buy an education' it would be worthwhile getting a good HX machine where they had to spend a year learning how to properly temp-surf which can teach a person a few things about thermal properties in relationship to shot pulling. From there they could move to double boiler which removes the temp-surf 'guessing' but they still have a decent understanding or thermals - but buying an HX to learn, then switching to a double boiler to produce on would be a luxury.

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I just saw your reply Tex, is that some kind of joke?

[Tex]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I just saw your reply Tex, is that some kind of joke?

No, but it has to be read in context. Some of us believe that each coffee has it's own sweet spot of a temperature. If one accepts this as true, then it follows that it's far easier to manipulate the temp of a SBDU machine than either a HX or DB.

A PID'd SBDU machine can be drained, temp reset, and temp restabilized much faster and with less effort than the other machines. If the SBDU machine is properly tuned and the user knows how to use the machine it's the better machine UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.

For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast. For them I say fine - it works for you. Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans - to them I say don't overlook the simplicity of the SBDU.

[staylor]

The idea is to reduce variables to constants. Using the same dose of coffee and the same tamp, and having a fixed flow of water, the only variable is grind coarseness. Nothing should change from shot to shot other than the grind.

Uhmmmm, no. The idea is to understand the variables and try to control them so they are relatively constant, as you manipulate one variable against the other. This may mean (for the more advanced shot puller) adjusting grind, dose and tamp in the same shot as compared to the previous shot.

Your advice of nothing should change from shot to shot other than grind is so spectacularly bad I swallowed twice while my eyes were bugging out as I read it. If that is your approach to espresso you are missing a lot. Your only adjust grind advice is so one-dimensional I find it hard to believe that you are willing to type it and hit sent.

[staylor]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact.  Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler).  BS!!!!!!!!!

I'm in total agreement GC7.

[Tex]

The idea is to reduce variables to constants. Using the same dose of coffee and the same tamp, and having a fixed flow of water, the only variable is grind coarseness. Nothing should change from shot to shot other than the grind.

Uhmmmm, no. The idea is to understand the variables and try to control them so they are relatively constant, as you manipulate one variable against the other. This may mean (for the more advanced shot puller) adjusting grind, dose and tamp in the same shot as compared to the previous shot.

Your advice of nothing should change from shot to shot other than grind is so spectacularly bad I swallowed twice while my eyes were bugging out as I read it. If that is your approach to espresso you are missing a lot. Your only adjust grind advice is so one-dimensional I find it hard to believe that you are willing to type it and hit sent.

Based on your statements I believe you're the antithesis of what baristas should strive to achieve. Consistency from shot to shot is the hallmark of a professional in any field. It's the  prima donna who strives for individuality at the expense of professional standards, trying to establish their superiority based on superfluous differences.

You and I have different standards, that's all. Good luck in finding that nirvana of coffeedom that you so desperately seek.

[John F]

Does the OPV affect flavor? here is a thread from CG that seems to imply that Jim from 1st line doesn't think so.

I don't have to read that thread to answer.....yes it does.

I've got no idea how it's even debatable for anybody that has experienced manipulating shots by just grind and tamp and then adding an OPV.  It's really obvious in several ways.

[John F]

It's the  prima donna who strives for individuality at the expense of professional standards, trying to establish their superiority based on superfluous differences.

Who picks standards and who decides what is superfluous and what isn't?

Espresso has more potential that a lot of people will either access or even attempt to access. 

[staylor]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I just saw your reply Tex, is that some kind of joke?

No, but it has to be read in context. Some of us believe that each coffee has it's own sweet spot of a temperature. If one accepts this as true, then it follows that it's far easier to manipulate the temp of a SBDU machine than either a HX or DB.

A PID'd SBDU machine can be drained, temp reset, and temp restabilized much faster and with less effort than the other machines. If the SBDU machine is properly tuned and the user knows how to use the machine it's the better machine UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.

For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast. For them I say fine - it works for you. Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans - to them I say don't overlook the simplicity of the SBDU.

Read in context... are you kidding me... these are your words not mine "the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer".

If you were referring only to the SBDU's ability to show a different thermal property on a counter once it is turned off, drained, refilled, reset, and temp stabilized then perhaps bring that into the discussion.

If you think the strong point of an SBDU is it's thermal juggling act and that beans have heat sweet spots of beans and that the SBDU can change temperatures then talk about that. In my opinion, your general statement of SBDU's are 'the best' way to go to manage heat is merely your opinion based on what you like and use.

You are far to quick to make your generalized comments appear as fact, case in point... "For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast." Those folks... I used to own a DB, so I guess that would make me one of 'those folks' and yet I tweaked my temps on my DB. Does that mean I was an anomaly because I tweaked my temps?

"Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans" who exactly is the 'some of us' club? Are you the president and there's a whole pile of us that didn't get invited to the tune and tweak party?

[Tex]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I just saw your reply Tex, is that some kind of joke?

No, but it has to be read in context. Some of us believe that each coffee has it's own sweet spot of a temperature. If one accepts this as true, then it follows that it's far easier to manipulate the temp of a SBDU machine than either a HX or DB.

A PID'd SBDU machine can be drained, temp reset, and temp restabilized much faster and with less effort than the other machines. If the SBDU machine is properly tuned and the user knows how to use the machine it's the better machine UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.

For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast. For them I say fine - it works for you. Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans - to them I say don't overlook the simplicity of the SBDU.

Read in context... are you kidding me... these are your words not mine "the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer".

If you were referring only to the SBDU's ability to show a different thermal property on a counter once it is turned off, drained, refilled, reset, and temp stabilized then perhaps bring that into the discussion.

If you think the strong point of an SBDU is it's thermal juggling act and that beans have heat sweet spots of beans and that the SBDU can change temperatures then talk about that. In my opinion, your general statement of SBDU's are 'the best' way to go to manage heat is merely your opinion based on what you like and use.

You are far to quick to make your generalized comments appear as fact, case in point... "For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast." Those folks... I used to own a DB, so I guess that would make me one of 'those folks' and yet I tweaked my temps on my DB. Does that mean I was an anomaly because I tweaked my temps?

"Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans" who exactly is the 'some of us' club? Are you the president and there's a whole pile of us that didn't get invited to the tune and tweak party?

As I've said, you and I have different standards. Yours are by no means mainstream, while I try to work within the norms of the 4 M's. Good luck with the path you've chosen!