Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[Pyment]

I have noticed it is hard to tell which machines have the adjustable OPV.

[Tex]

I was trying to use the 3 way solenoid as a marker for when other internals of the machine reach the point where they are worth upgrading. You usually don't see the 3way solenoid in cheaper machines.

I wonder what would be the least expensive machine with an adjustible OPV?

New or used? A new Gaggia Classic is $499 & a new Silvia costs $649.

Has one or can easily be fitted with one? Milo just paid $20 for a used Gaggia Carezza and if he added a bolt-on Classic OPV (~$50), he'd be halfway to building a tunable espresso machine. Throw in the assembled parts to PID it and he'd have ~$120 invested in a kick ass machine capable of making great shots.

Or he could spend $1500+ on a prosumer machine that'll also be capable of making great espresso.

Hmmm, which way to go? At least it's nice to have options!

[staylor]

well just to dredge up an old thread. It seems that you can separate the espresso journey into steps (excluding steam toys).

Step 1 - Single boiler dual use systems. I suppose one should look for units that can be upgraded to step 2 use. The most famous entries at this level would be the Gaggia Classic/Baby series and the Rancilio Silvia. They have good internals and record of durability. The 3 way solenoid is a nicity that most seem to value. There are other entries that can be found for a good price - Isomac Venus/Maverick/Giada Le'Lit PL041, . Skill is needed to get extraction at the proper temp. Usually requiring temp surfing.

Step 2 - This is the reason to be somewhat careful about the machine one purchases as a step 1 unit. If you are somewhat mechanical (or know someone who is), you can upgrade some of the SBDU's with a PID to get a more consistent brew temp. Some people buy SBDU's with the intent of adding a PID right away and some buy units already PID'd. I get the impression that you want a unit with pretty good innards to make it worthy of the additional investment of time and $$. Some people can be quite happy for a long time with this kind of unit.  We will have to see how long B/Java stays here after his latest round of upgrade-itis.

BTW, I am surprized that B/Java (Mr happy-with-stock-Silvia) was able to go through this little episode of upgrading with little fanfare and less humor at his expense. B/upgrader got off easy this time around.

Step 3 - Heat exchanger seems to be the next step (cost wise at least). The motivator for moving to this step is "need for steam". People seem to get frustrated when trying to make a bunch of milk drinks in a row and want the instant steam provided by an HX machine. Temp surfing as done with this machine seems a lot easier and consistent than on a SBDU unit.

Step 4 - Double boiler units with separate boilers for steam and brewing seem to give the ultimate control over steam and brew temps. For most this is at a much higher $$.

then there are lever machines that really don't fit the progression.

Do I have it right?

I think that's a good overview, but rather than call it steps in a journey I would simply call them 'machine categories' for lack of a better term. Steps to me indicates a logical progression, when in fact the double boiler units may not be a necessary progression for someone who feels they are getting what they want in the previous step and step 1 doesn't seem like a logical starting point for a person with a large budget.

Generally the category a person finds themselves in is dictated by budget. If a person had an infinite amount of money I don't see the need to start at step 1 to work through a progression of frustration and I would recommend for them to go to a double boiler unit just to control the variables better and provide greater entertainment capacity/experimentation capacity. If the unlimited budget person wanted to 'buy an education' it would be worthwhile getting a good HX machine where they had to spend a year learning how to properly temp-surf which can teach a person a few things about thermal properties in relationship to shot pulling. From there they could move to double boiler which removes the temp-surf 'guessing' but they still have a decent understanding or thermals - but buying an HX to learn, then switching to a double boiler to produce on would be a luxury.

[Tex]

I have noticed it is hard to tell which machines have the adjustable OPV.

It's easy to sell a 3-way valve - that's all that's been talked about for years. It's tough to sell an adjustable OPV - that implies that your new machine may need tweaking right out of the box.

If I was in the business  of selling espresso machines for home use I'd start with the Gaggia Classic and incorporate a PID. Then I'd have all machines pretuned to 9 bar pressure and 200°F brew temp. I'd price them at ~$600 and watch them fly out the door!

That would set the bar for home machines and force everyone else to play catch up. Unfortunately, Gaggia isn't all that bright - they'd rather be a niche player than try heading the pack.

[milowebailey]

To be fair it was $25   I'm onto another one this week for $20.

You do have to upgrade the Gaggia Steam wand too, but that takes 10 minutes if you are slow.

here is one Gaggia with all the bells and whistles.  (PID, Adjustable OPV, Silvia Steam wand) Total cost $150 (I paid $60 for this machine before the modifications). 



I've found 3 Gaggia (like new) in CL over the last 6 months for under $30.  One of them came with 2 steaming pitchers.

[Tex]

well just to dredge up an old thread. It seems that you can separate the espresso journey into steps (excluding steam toys).

Step 1 - Single boiler dual use systems. I suppose one should look for units that can be upgraded to step 2 use. The most famous entries at this level would be the Gaggia Classic/Baby series and the Rancilio Silvia. They have good internals and record of durability. The 3 way solenoid is a nicity that most seem to value. There are other entries that can be found for a good price - Isomac Venus/Maverick/Giada Le'Lit PL041, . Skill is needed to get extraction at the proper temp. Usually requiring temp surfing.

Step 2 - This is the reason to be somewhat careful about the machine one purchases as a step 1 unit. If you are somewhat mechanical (or know someone who is), you can upgrade some of the SBDU's with a PID to get a more consistent brew temp. Some people buy SBDU's with the intent of adding a PID right away and some buy units already PID'd. I get the impression that you want a unit with pretty good innards to make it worthy of the additional investment of time and $$. Some people can be quite happy for a long time with this kind of unit.  We will have to see how long B/Java stays here after his latest round of upgrade-itis.

BTW, I am surprized that B/Java (Mr happy-with-stock-Silvia) was able to go through this little episode of upgrading with little fanfare and less humor at his expense. B/upgrader got off easy this time around.

Step 3 - Heat exchanger seems to be the next step (cost wise at least). The motivator for moving to this step is "need for steam". People seem to get frustrated when trying to make a bunch of milk drinks in a row and want the instant steam provided by an HX machine. Temp surfing as done with this machine seems a lot easier and consistent than on a SBDU unit.

Step 4 - Double boiler units with separate boilers for steam and brewing seem to give the ultimate control over steam and brew temps. For most this is at a much higher $$.

then there are lever machines that really don't fit the progression.

Do I have it right?

I think that's a good overview, but rather than call it steps in a journey I would simply call them 'machine categories' for lack of a better term. Steps to me indicates a logical progression, when in fact the double boiler units may not be a necessary progression for someone who feels they are getting what they want in the previous step and step 1 doesn't seem like a logical starting point for a person with a large budget.

Generally the category a person finds themselves in is dictated by budget. If a person had an infinite amount of money I don't see the need to start at step 1 to work through a progression of frustration and I would recommend for them to go to a double boiler unit just to control the variables better and provide greater entertainment capacity/experimentation capacity. If the unlimited budget person wanted to 'buy an education' it would be worthwhile getting a good HX machine where they had to spend a year learning how to properly temp-surf which can teach a person a few things about thermal properties in relationship to shot pulling. From there they could move to double boiler which removes the temp-surf 'guessing' but they still have a decent understanding or thermals - but buying an HX to learn, then switching to a double boiler to produce on would be a luxury.

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

[Tex]

To be fair it was $25   I'm onto another one this week for $20.

You do have to upgrade the Gaggia Steam wand too, but that takes 10 minutes if you are slow.

here is one Gaggia with all the bells and whistles.  (PID, Adjustable OPV, Silvia Steam wand) Total cost $150 (I paid $60 for this machine before the modifications). 

I've found 3 Gaggia (like new) in CL over the last 6 months for under $30.  One of them came with 2 steaming pitchers.

And for another $5, you can add control of the steam circuit and have a machine that even the frou-frou mavens would be happy with.

[Pyment]

Does the OPV affect flavor? here is a thread from CG that seems to imply that Jim from 1st line doesn't think so.

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/334261

What I get from this is that the pressure is really determined by grind and tamp rather than anything in the system.

I did start a thread on this on 1st lines forums here:        
http://www.baristadude.com/domains/baristadude.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24

Feel free to chime in there!

Jim answered, but I am not sure he spoke to whether it is important.

[Pyment]

I was really thinking about finding some SBDU machine for a good price and doing the upgrade.

like this:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1861297792.html

[Pyment]

I really want to get my brain around this OPV thing. It isn't making sense to me.

If, as I understand, it redirects the water when the pressure reaches a certain point. By preventing higher pressures it might lead to better pump life.

let me think this through. Extraction is related to surface area (which itself is related to weight of coffee and grind size). Water volume (this is flow rate through the puck) is related to resistance and pressure. Temperature is related to the temperature of water entering the brew chamber and the thermal mass of the group (which is related to material weight, thermal properties of the metal and group temp at the time of extraction).

If you have a valve that limits the top pressure value applied to the puck, it would mostly come into play when you grind too finely or tamp too hard. If you grind too coarsely or tamp weakly, pressure would never reachthe point where the OPV would come into play. OTOH if grind is too fine or tamped with too much pressure, more volume would be diverted back into the tank and it would take longer to get the same volume of espresso. Would it be over extracted because longer contact time? If you cut off the water at the usual time would itbe underextracted because of less volume? or do the effects of contact time and volume just cancel each other out? Are there too many variables to balance and having pressure steady just eliminates one of them?

[Tex]

Does this help?



The idea is to reduce variables to constants. Using the same dose of coffee and the same tamp, and having a fixed flow of water, the only variable is grind coarseness. Nothing should change from shot to shot other than the grind.

And anyone suggesting that an OPV is unnecessary isn't playing with a full deck! Maybe they also believe that necessity for temperature control is also an urban myth?

[GC7]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact.  Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler).  BS!!!!!!!!!

[Tex]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact.  Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler).  BS!!!!!!!!!

And you're an argumentative jerk. I suggest you look on Home Barista and you'll find that Jim Schulman and others agree with me that a SBDU machine is best for making espresso with various SO beans. Now shut up and go away!

And for some anonymous nimrod to question my motives is the height of absurdity!

[GC7]

I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.

I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact.  Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler).  BS!!!!!!!!!

And you're an argumentative jerk. I suggest you look on Home Barista and you'll find that Jim Schulman and others agree with me that a SBDU machine is best for making espresso with various SO beans. Now shut up and go away!

And for some anonymous nimrod to question my motives is the height of absurdity!

Good answer Tex.  Shows your intelligence and debating skills.
With statements like the one I quoted you are one of two things
1-   A snake-oil salesman totally over-hyping what are useful machines
2-   A stupid idiot who knows nothing about espresso machines
Take your pick

ps - Scchulman said no such thing in the context you want it to look like. What kind of machine does Schulman use?  Jerk

[mp]

How do you make a "Hardware & Equipment" thread qualify for "Hot Topics"?