Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[GC7]

Better grind then the MACAP (as recommended and stated by Chris Coffee - not me) AND CHEAPER from 1st line.

http://www.home-barista.com/marketplace/pre-summer-blow-out-sale-compak-grinders-t14316.html

[peter]

I haven't seen that the stepless is that big a deal.  For the ideal world it would be, but not for my world.



Pyment, if you can spring for the Vibiemme Jr., you may as well just go all the way to the Izzo Alex Duetto II.  Just sayin'...

[Tex]

I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.

There isn't an indication of how large the dead band is on the bulb thermostat.

I suppose an inquiry to 1st line is in order.

While I've never used, or even seen, that machine, based on the specs, there are a couple of issues.

1) I'm having a hard time with the brew bulb thermostat's 2°C adjustment increments. I don't feel like converting that right now, but with my PID I'm making adjustments of 1°F, giving me much tighter control of brew temps. Some folks claim they can taste a difference in taste of just a 1°F change.

2) The 600 watt heating element means you're going to have a long wait between shots for the brew temp to stabilize.

[Tex]

I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.

Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in.  Peddle the Rocky.  Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though)  http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm

B|Java

Great grinder - and stepless is critical to fine espresso. The difference between a good & great shot might only be the tiniest of changes in the separation of the burrs. Stepped adjustment means having to settle on grinder changes of a fixed distance - bad!

[peter]

I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.

Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in.  Peddle the Rocky.  Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though)  http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm

B|Java

Great grinder - and stepless is critical to fine espresso. The difference between a good & great shot might only be the tiniest of changes in the separation of the burrs. Stepped adjustment means having to settle on grinder changes of a fixed distance - bad!

In theory, I'd agree. 

How often do you adjust your grinder Tex, in the course of a given morning?  Do you start with a shot, and then say, "This needs to go finer," adjust, pull, evaluate, readjust?  If so, do you throw out each of those shots until you get it right?

[Tex]

I haven't seen that the stepless is that big a deal.  For the ideal world it would be, but not for my world.



Pyment, if you can spring for the Vibiemme Jr., you may as well just go all the way to the Izzo Alex Duetto II.  Just sayin'...

I like the specs on the Duetto better, but for $800 more it's not that big an upgrade.

[staylor]

I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.

Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in.  Peddle the Rocky.  Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though)  http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm

B|Java

Great grinder - and stepless is critical to fine espresso. The difference between a good & great shot might only be the tiniest of changes in the separation of the burrs. Stepped adjustment means having to settle on grinder changes of a fixed distance - bad!

Stepless is a good idea but not 'critical' to espresso. The difference between a good and great shot might be the tiniest of changes but the stepped change usually manages it just fine, if it requires precision work that the stepped can't manage then it becomes the small tweak at dosing.

The upside to stepped is it's easier to go back to a known constant, particularly if you switch back and forth between espresso, pourover, chemex, etc. You will find certain 'sweet spots' on the steeped grinder adjustment ring for each brew method that you can go back to with ease.

I like to think my espresso is pretty good, I used a stepped Macap.

[Tex]

I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.

Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in.  Peddle the Rocky.  Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though)  http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm

B|Java

Great grinder - and stepless is critical to fine espresso. The difference between a good & great shot might only be the tiniest of changes in the separation of the burrs. Stepped adjustment means having to settle on grinder changes of a fixed distance - bad!

In theory, I'd agree. 

How often do you adjust your grinder Tex, in the course of a given morning?  Do you start with a shot, and then say, "This needs to go finer," adjust, pull, evaluate, readjust?  If so, do you throw out each of those shots until you get it right?

I make adjustments from shot to shot, all the time - don't you? The differences are minor; maybe a 24 second pull instead of 25, but I'll adjust the grinder so the next shot will be better. Throw out a perfectly acceptable shot? You silly boy, why would you even ask that question?

[Tex]

I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.

Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in.  Peddle the Rocky.  Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though)  http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm

B|Java

Great grinder - and stepless is critical to fine espresso. The difference between a good & great shot might only be the tiniest of changes in the separation of the burrs. Stepped adjustment means having to settle on grinder changes of a fixed distance - bad!

Stepless is a good idea but not 'critical' to espresso. The difference between a good and great shot might be the tiniest of changes but the stepped change usually manages it just fine, if it requires precision work that the stepped can't manage then it becomes the small tweak at dosing.

The upside to stepped is it's easier to go back to a known constant, particularly if you switch back and forth between espresso, pourover, chemex, etc. You will find certain 'sweet spots' on the steeped grinder adjustment ring for each brew method that you can go back to with ease.

I like to think my espresso is pretty good, I used a stepped Macap.

I prefer to use a separate grinder for my non-espresso coffee making. Going back and forth is one way to do it, but not for me; once I find the sweet spot I don't want anything throwing it off. One thing to consider, there is a bit of play in the threads that is dependent on which way you move the burr carrier. If you move the burr carrier up to grind for press pot say, turn the burr carrier back down past the espresso setting then turn it back.

[peter]

I make adjustments from shot to shot, all the time - don't you? The differences are minor; maybe a 24 second pull instead of 25, but I'll adjust the grinder so the next shot will be better. Throw out a perfectly acceptable shot? You silly boy, why would you even ask that question?

Maybe I need to start pulling singles.  I'll have two doubles, and then my buzz is sufficient.  That would mean one adjustment, and that might not be where the next shot later in the day needs to be.  So no, I don't adjust my grinder much.

[John F]

If so, do you throw out each of those shots until you get it right?

Bingo!

I remember watching a vid of Gwilym Davies pull shots and I noticed he was purging the grinder with ~3-5g of coffee between shots.

I thought to myself how much sense it made, how great of a practice it was, why it's so very much an "espresso" thing to do and that I'll probably never do it in day to day practice.  

So it is with stepless.... it's a fantastic idea but is anybody sinking shots until they dial in the perfect stepless grind? Even if you did it on Monday at 9am are you going to auto-sink your first shot later that evening or the next day? Because we don't have laser targeted "locked and loaded" grinding and things are always on the move.

Better is better but the idea of falling between the steps and not being able to compensate by grind/dose doesn't really sound like the type of measure anybody who cares would fail on more than a few times a year. At least not to a degree that matters in the grand sense. And I don't want to sound like I'm advocating sloppy practice or anything but maybe it's like a dog whistle. At some point the measures are small enough that like a dog whistle you really don't hear it anyway....it's still real, you just don't hear it.

[John F]

Maybe I need to start pulling singles. 

I doubt it.

[peter]

Everyone knows I'm a noob, so I can ask any question I want.      Isn't the tamp a variable, just as the distribution and dose, just as the grind, just as the... ?  Can't the grinder just be close, and then the shot be adjusted by other parameters, say tamp pressure?

I suppose it goes back to 'what's in your cup?' and how does it taste to you/me.  Knowing that the shot can always be 'better' should not keep it from being enjoyed.

[Pyment]

I thought Tex didn't even look at flat burred grinders under 60mm.

I was kind of looking at the Cunill. http://sovranastore.com/cunbrasgrin.html

I had thought about the PID'd Junior from eBay. Wonder if that voids the warranty?

Roast-e has the Domobar Junior for the same price as 1st line but they have a 10% off coupon. So, $1322 for the Junior?

[Tex]

Everyone knows I'm a noob, so I can ask any question I want.      Isn't the tamp a variable, just as the distribution and dose, just as the grind, just as the... ?  Can't the grinder just be close, and then the shot be adjusted by other parameters, say tamp pressure?

I suppose it goes back to 'what's in your cup?' and how does it taste to you/me.  Knowing that the shot can always be 'better' should not keep it from being enjoyed.

Ideally, the tamp should be consistent from shot to shot, making the grind the only variable.