Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[Tex]

For those who care about details, try this. An espresso machine is using a PID to maintain a group/brewing temp of 200°F, typically to within <1°F. Environmental/ambient temperatures may affect the external temps of the boiler & group, but as the temp drops the PID instantly senses this and fires up the heating element to compensate. The boiler/group maintains a steady temperature to within <1°F, as determined by the PID's programming.

Likewise, if the ambient temp rises the PID senses the change and keeps the heating element off to compensate.

Environmental changes do not affect the shot, they simply wake up or put to sleep any device managing the group/brew temperatures. Unless the controlling device is defective it will maintain a very consistent brewing temperature. That's what a PID is designed to do and they've been doing it well for decades.

[mp]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

[Tex]

I have a PID controlled boiler (+/- 1* F) AND a grouphead digital thermometer.  Ambient room temperature has as much as a 3-4* effect on steady state equlibrium grouphead temperature that MUST be accounted for to get desired brew temperatures.  FACT

Now you're changing your facts to fit your argument. The environmental temp isn't affecting the brewing device, but instead affects the device controlling the boiler?

I agree with that, but it in no way impacts the machine performance if the device is functioning properly and maintains the preset temperature.

[Tex]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?

[milowebailey]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?

:argue:

[Tex]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?

:argue:

I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?

[mp]

For those who care about details, try this. An espresso machine is using a PID to maintain a group/brewing temp of 200°F, typically to within <1°F. Environmental/ambient temperatures may affect the external temps of the boiler & group, but as they change the PID instantly senses this and fires up the heating element to compensate. The boiler/group maintains a steady temperature to within <1°F, as determined by the PID's programming.

Likewise, if the ambient temp falls the PID senses the change and keeps the heating element off to compensate.

Environmental changes do not affect the shot, they simply wake up or put to sleep any device managing the group/brew temperatures. Unless the controlling device is defective it will maintain a very consistent brewing temperature. That's what a PID is designed to do and they've been doing it well for decades.

I bit confused on this PID working.  

Is it not dependent on the placement of the probe(s) or thermocouples of the PID the temperature setting that will be kept?  For example if the PID is supposed to monitor and maintain the temperature of the boiler then it will only do that and do it pretty well.  It would never read or otherwise monitor the temperature at the group head ... right?

 

[mp]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?

:argue:

I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?

Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?

 

[Tex]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

OK, OK! Just for MP's satisfaction!

Good espresso machine = tunable to minimum standards, capable of producing great shots on occasion, and has adequate steam power for personal use.

Great espresso machine = tunable to minimum standards, capable of producing great shots over and over, to the users hearts content, loads of steam power to make those lovely frou-frou drinks.

Crappy espresso machine = not tunable to minimum standards, lucky to get one shot that drinkable, couldn't produce enough steam to wilt lettuce.

How's that for a definition?

[Tex]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?

:argue:

I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?

Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?

 

Are you implying that he doesn't?
 

[mp]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?

:argue:

I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?

Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?

 

Are you implying that he doesn't?
 

I didn't imply anything.

 

[Tex]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?

:argue:

I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?

Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?

 

Are you implying that he doesn't?
 

I didn't imply anything.

 

Are you implying that you're innocent or just clueless?

 

[mp]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

OK, OK! Just for MP's satisfaction!

Good espresso machine = tunable to minimum standards, capable of producing great shots on occasion, and has adequate steam power for personal use.

Great espresso machine = tunable to minimum standards, capable of producing great shots over and over, to the users hearts content, loads of steam power to make those lovely frou-frou drinks.

Crappy espresso machine = not tunable to minimum standards, lucky to get one shot that drinkable, couldn't produce enough steam to wilt lettuce.

How's that for a definition?

As of this post #264 ... it is a good start in defining bad, good, and great espresso machines.

 

[mp]

What was this thread about again?

Supposedly good or great espresso machines.  It seems that topic was never realized.  If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.

 

I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?

:argue:

I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?

Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?

 

Are you implying that he doesn't?
 

I didn't imply anything.

 

Are you implying that you're innocent or just clueless?

 

What good is an icon to argue the balls off of a billy goat when we can't get the basic ones properly defined?

  - Angel ... it means I am angelic and don't imply anything.

 

[Tex]

For those who care about details, try this. An espresso machine is using a PID to maintain a group/brewing temp of 200°F, typically to within <1°F. Environmental/ambient temperatures may affect the external temps of the boiler & group, but as they change the PID instantly senses this and fires up the heating element to compensate. The boiler/group maintains a steady temperature to within <1°F, as determined by the PID's programming.

Likewise, if the ambient temp falls the PID senses the change and keeps the heating element off to compensate.

Environmental changes do not affect the shot, they simply wake up or put to sleep any device managing the group/brew temperatures. Unless the controlling device is defective it will maintain a very consistent brewing temperature. That's what a PID is designed to do and they've been doing it well for decades.

I bit confused on this PID working.  

Is it not dependent on the placement of the probe(s) or thermocouples of the PID the temperature setting that will be kept?  For example if the PID is supposed to monitor and maintain the temperature of the boiler then it will only do that and do it pretty well.  It would never read or otherwise monitor the temperature at the group head ... right?

 

Not really. If the thermocouple is placed on the boiler or group, or even inside the boiler, there will not be an exact display of the temps at the group or in the filter. But, there will be a direct correlation between the temp displayed and the brew temp. Example: I put t/c's on the brew tstat boss for Gaggias. Because of the proximity of the heating elements the display temp will usually be ~7°F above the actual brew temp. Knowing that, one tests for brew temps using a Scace device or the styrofoam cup test and makes adjustments to the PID up or down, making 1°F changes of the displayed temp to change the brew temp by a like amount.

Why not measure the brew temp directly? That would only be viable if one had water running through the group continuously. Since water passes through the group only when a shot is pulled, there would be nothing for the PID to adjust for when the machine is idle. That's when a PID works it's magic - during idle times.