Author Topic: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!  (Read 90019 times)

Offline staylor

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #210 on: June 10, 2010, 07:55:48 AM »
It seems like pyment is looking, but it is for whoever. There is also a Macap M4 on CL right now for $200. That is a great price too!

That is a fantastic price, if I didn't have one already I would jump on that.

So I have a question for you, it sounds like you are a big fan of the La San Marco lever and I know less about lever's than Tex knows about milk (hahaha), I've done some digging around and lever is still interesting me but scouring Kijiji and craigslist is getting a bit old. Do you know of an online seller that carries lever's you would give the stamp of approval?

milowebailey

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #211 on: June 10, 2010, 07:59:06 AM »
..... and I know less about lever's than Tex knows about milk (hahaha), .....
;D :bootyshake: ;D

Offline peter

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #212 on: June 10, 2010, 08:39:35 AM »
So I have a question for you, it sounds like you are a big fan of the La San Marco lever and I know less about lever's than Tex knows about milk (hahaha), I've done some digging around and lever is still interesting me but scouring Kijiji and craigslist is getting a bit old. Do you know of an online seller that carries lever's you would give the stamp of approval?


I saw one of these being used at CoffeeFest.  http://xrl.in/5kpt

You'd have to change your name to Staylinni, or something tho' and become more Italian.
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Offline mp

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #213 on: June 10, 2010, 08:41:48 AM »
So I have a question for you, it sounds like you are a big fan of the La San Marco lever and I know less about lever's than Tex knows about milk (hahaha), I've done some digging around and lever is still interesting me but scouring Kijiji and craigslist is getting a bit old. Do you know of an online seller that carries lever's you would give the stamp of approval?


I saw one of these being used at CoffeeFest.  http://xrl.in/5kpt

You'd have to change your name to Staylinni, or something tho' and become more Italian.


Or Herr Schotzie the 2nd.

 :-X
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lp, 7-Ski

Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #214 on: June 10, 2010, 08:43:16 AM »
Here's one for those in need of a machine that says something about who they are.



Mrs T used one of these in her office until NASA nixed personal appliances. It was one of the polished aluminum models and it actually had some good features.

GC7

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #215 on: June 10, 2010, 08:47:37 AM »
It seems like pyment is looking, but it is for whoever. There is also a Macap M4 on CL right now for $200. That is a great price too!

That is a fantastic price, if I didn't have one already I would jump on that.


1st line has a few Compak K3 grinders new with warrenty for $299.  That is also a great deal for a dedicated espresso grinder that delivers high quality grind.

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #216 on: June 10, 2010, 08:48:19 AM »
Tex, another (friendly) question for you along the lines of this thread...  While I was researching, some credence was given to my thinking that because I possess almost zero barista skills that I would choose a machine capable of exacting performance so that I became the variable and not the machine.

Would you suggest a SB|DU machine or a HX to a noob?  Or would you say it's better to have the noob realize if the shots are 'less-than' because it's them and not the machine.

See what I'm saying?  For someone like Pyment who stated it's not about money, would you still stick to your 'do more with less' platform, and risk him losing interest because his skills aren't honed enough to use a machine that may be capable in someone's very skilled hands?
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Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #217 on: June 10, 2010, 09:14:03 AM »
Tex, another (friendly) question for you along the lines of this thread...  While I was researching, some credence was given to my thinking that because I possess almost zero barista skills that I would choose a machine capable of exacting performance so that I became the variable and not the machine.

Would you suggest a SB|DU machine or a HX to a noob?  Or would you say it's better to have the noob realize if the shots are 'less-than' because it's them and not the machine.

See what I'm saying?  For someone like Pyment who stated it's not about money, would you still stick to your 'do more with less' platform, and risk him losing interest because his skills aren't honed enough to use a machine that may be capable in someone's very skilled hands?

I always recommend a SB/DU machine for the noob. The water dance of the HX is not difficult to master, but it's just another variable the noob doesn't have to take into consideration. And since it's been my experience that ~1/2 of everyone who tries making espresso drops out before mastering the skills that would make use of the more complex machines; I figure why spend the money on something they can't use to its fullest potential?

My reason for recommending simpler machines for noobs is simple; keep the complexity factor low, and the expectation of the results high. I've seen noobs so intimidated by the bells and whistles of their new machines, that they just won't use them. That's how I ended up with a VII to use for nearly 3 months; a friends husband bought it new after having caps at my house. They weren't total novices - they'd used a steam toy for years - but enough so that I strongly recommended one of my PID'd Espresso's as a good starting point. Instead, he let a sales agent at Chris' talk him into the VII.

Longish story made short; He got it, didn't succeed right away, figured espresso wasn't in his future, and pushed it to the back of his counter. Only after my friend got frustrated at having it on HER counter, doing nothing, did he call me for help. I brought him the Gaggia and bottomless portafilter I had, spent an hour showing him how to grind & tamp, and how to judge a shot by what he saw and tasted, then put the VII in my car to take home for testing and tuning (the group pressure was set at 10 bar - too high, and the group temp was 185°F - too low).

My suggestion of a simpler machine has nothing to do with money - heck my wife and I blow way too much at antique auctions to worry about the cost of an espresso machine! I simply want noobs to have a successful 1st venture into espresso. That means having a properly tuned combo of grinder & espresso machine and the minimum skill set to begin the journey. I have an easier time guiding them if they're using a machine that I'm intimately familiar with!


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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #218 on: June 10, 2010, 09:24:43 AM »
That makes sense, sort of.

I don't get how the guy could be confused by, or unable to use his VII.  But then I can program a VCR too.
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Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #219 on: June 10, 2010, 09:31:03 AM »
That makes sense, sort of.

I don't get how the guy could be confused by, or unable to use his VII.  But then I can program a VCR too.

Part of the problem was, it wasn't properly tuned when it came from Chris Coffee. I can excuse that for a sub-$400 purchase, but for what those things cost - never!

Imagine, you've never driven a Porsche and the one time in your life when you get behind the wheel, it's running on two cylinders and the injectors are plugged. Since you've nothing to compare the experience to, you assume all high-performance cars are tricky to drive and beyond your skill level.

Edited: How many drivers ed programs have you seen that used anything but the most basic of cars?

That's what I see too often, people just being overwhelmed by their equipment.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 09:32:41 AM by Tex »

Offline peter

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #220 on: June 10, 2010, 09:38:47 AM »
Boy.  A nice guy would've tuned it for him, even if Chris' dropped the ball.  Instead you sacrificially take it off his hands.   ;D
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Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #221 on: June 10, 2010, 09:41:19 AM »
Tex, another (friendly) question for you along the lines of this thread...  While I was researching, some credence was given to my thinking that because I possess almost zero barista skills that I would choose a machine capable of exacting performance so that I became the variable and not the machine.

Would you suggest a SB|DU machine or a HX to a noob?  Or would you say it's better to have the noob realize if the shots are 'less-than' because it's them and not the machine.

See what I'm saying?  For someone like Pyment who stated it's not about money, would you still stick to your 'do more with less' platform, and risk him losing interest because his skills aren't honed enough to use a machine that may be capable in someone's very skilled hands?

I always recommend a SB/DU machine for the noob. The water dance of the HX is not difficult to master, but it's just another variable the noob doesn't have to take into consideration. And since it's been my experience that ~1/2 of everyone who tries making espresso drops out before mastering the skills that would make use of the more complex machines; I figure why spend the money on something they can't use to its fullest potential?

My reason for recommending simpler machines for noobs is simple; keep the complexity factor low, and the expectation of the results high. I've seen noobs so intimidated by the bells and whistles of their new machines, that they just won't use them. That's how I ended up with a VII to use for nearly 3 months; a friends husband bought it new after having caps at my house. They weren't total novices - they'd used a steam toy for years - but enough so that I strongly recommended one of my PID'd Espresso's as a good starting point. Instead, he let a sales agent at Chris' talk him into the VII.

Longish story made short; He got it, didn't succeed right away, figured espresso wasn't in his future, and pushed it to the back of his counter. Only after my friend got frustrated at having it on HER counter, doing nothing, did he call me for help. I brought him the Gaggia and bottomless portafilter I had, spent an hour showing him how to grind & tamp, and how to judge a shot by what he saw and tasted, then put the VII in my car to take home for testing and tuning (the group pressure was set at 10 bar - too high, and the group temp was 185°F - too low).

My suggestion of a simpler machine has nothing to do with money - heck my wife and I blow way too much at antique auctions to worry about the cost of an espresso machine! I simply want noobs to have a successful 1st venture into espresso. That means having a properly tuned combo of grinder & espresso machine and the minimum skill set to begin the journey. I have an easier time guiding them if they're using a machine that I'm intimately familiar with!

Too common a problem; ladies experience what I have to offer and husbands suffer the consequences! >:D


Offline mp

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #222 on: June 10, 2010, 09:43:59 AM »
Boy.  A nice guy would've tuned it for him, even if Chris' dropped the ball.  Instead you sacrificially take it off his hands.   ;D

He did him a favor ... he now has a simple machine to use.

 ;D
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lp, 7-Ski

Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #223 on: June 10, 2010, 09:53:27 AM »
Boy.  A nice guy would've tuned it for him, even if Chris' dropped the ball.  Instead you sacrificially take it off his hands.   ;D

He did him a favor ... he now has a simple machine to use.

 ;D

Oh yeah, he owes me big time. And I did tune it before I returned it. Still not sure I did him a favor by swapping back like we did, the Gaggia was the better machine, but it didn't look as pretty as the VII.

Guess what? He also drives a vintage Maserati that also says a lot about who & what he is. His wife drives a simple Chevy pickup that does all the heavy work.


Offline peter

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #224 on: June 10, 2010, 09:58:00 AM »
Oh yeah, he owes me big time. And I did tune it before I returned it. Still not sure I did him a favor by swapping back like we did, the Gaggia was the better machine, but it didn't look as pretty as the VII.

Are you just talking trash to keep this stupid thread alive?  I think so.  Maybe you really don't know how to tune a machine.   ;D

First you say it's all a matter of skill in the barista...  then you say...   ahhhh, forget it.
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