Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[John F]

No, actually we see it the same.

I wrote a freaking epic ramble on this topic and it was WAY too much for this space.

All about how coffee is a river...and it got super out there. I almost posted it but pulled back. I've posted a few of these but this one was way WAY  much and people would have been stymied.

But don't worry we agreed on that too. 

[staylor]

No, actually we see it the same.

I wrote a freaking epic ramble on this topic and it was WAY too much for this space.

All about how coffee is a river...and it got super out there. I almost posted it but pulled back. I've posted a few of these but this one was way WAY  much and people would have been stymied.

But don't worry we agreed on that too. 

Way out there?

How about as I stood in my kitchen early this afternoon after pulling a Pedra Roxa/Mapanga/Copey shot in small milk, I got my usual transformational coffee hit and off I went to spend some time in a forgotten memory slice (time, haha, what's time in this case) pretty cool because I accessed some stuff I had totally forgotten about, then pow, I was doing a little bit of present day expansion stuff, then pow, was that a slice of some potential future stuff going on. Big subject stuff, not enough time to get into it on electronic paper. I guess it helped that before the shot I was considering the ability of the espresso to act as a medium to allow for that sort of stuff, perhaps it works for me because I've enabled it as a system protocol that now kind of runs on its own once I engage it. Or something like that...

And you?  ;-)

[cfsheridan]

The choice of machine is just that, a choice.  It offers alternatives and differing paths along the journey.  I'm in no doubt that I could have an acceptable journey along the path of single-boiler machines with temperature control, or with a heat exchanger machine.  I looked at the options, what resources I've been blessed with, and chose the Vibiemme double based on what I thought gave me the best long-term path to travel.

I'd venture to say even in 3 months I've but taken a few feeble steps on that path, and stand humbled before the masses of those further along the journey with what some would call simpler machines.

It's a machine, merely a tool outlining a path (or John's river) to travel, nothing more, nothing less.

[John F]

And you?  ;-)

 

How I realize that I moved from being something floating on the river like a leaf or candy wrapper to being a part of the current now (where coffee is the river flow).  A follow observation that the current is actually not the steering mechanism by itself and how funny that is to assimilate in and loose control/steering at the same time. Ironic right?

And then some ideas on matter/stuff the make up of things and the possibility that we might be made of coffee to start with anyhow just drawing back to ourselves.

Typica status quo stuff. 
 

[staylor]

And you?  ;-)

 

How I realize that I moved from being something floating on the river like a leaf or candy wrapper to being a part of the current now (where coffee is the river flow).  A follow observation that the current is actually not the steering mechanism by itself and how funny that is to assimilate in and loose control/steering at the same time. Ironic right?

And then some ideas on matter/stuff the make up of things and the possibility that we might be made of coffee to start with anyhow just drawing back to ourselves.

Typica status quo stuff. 
 

I get it.

[John F]

I get it.

I know....cuz you are made of coffee.   

[Tex]

'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd'.

I see it slightly different.

I think there is a % of buying in to whatever equipment people choose and then justification towards their choices/decisions.

If I go out and spend what is a large amount of money for me I can't really tell you my shots are garbage without feeling silly. If I can't buy as much machine as you it might make me feel better to tell you my shots are every bit as good as yours.

snipped

There's always that argument, and I'd even buy into it except it doesn't take into account the varying levels of experience of those making claims. What you say is usually attributable to inexperienced users, who've either bought more than they can use or to those who're jealous of the purchases of others.

But what about folks who've been at this long enough to make a recommendation based entirely on their experiences? I've been playing at espresso for a handful of decades, using many different machines, sometimes coming back to a machine after a few years with an entirely different perspective.

I like double boilers! The first one I played with was the La Marzocco owned by a local service club. I agreed to rebuild it for them in exchange for some antiques they had that Mrs T wanted. It was the heaviest machine I've worked on to date, and it made great coffee after I rebuilt it (the frou-frou wasn't so good - my fault not the machine's).

I like HX machines! I own three,  and have rebuilt a half-dozen or so more. I prefer the Bunn ES-1A/Futurmat Milady (I own two now, and sold one other). Once the water dance is mastered HX machines make wonderful coffee - over and over and over.

I like SB/DU machines! The best thing about them is they're cheaper than HX or Double boiler machines. They're also easy to PID, and once modded they are the perfect espresso machine for the home roaster. It's been my experience that every roast of every SO is just different enough, that each has it's own sweet spot as far as brewing temps go. With the PID'd SB/DU machine one has the ideal machine to find that sweet spot. One can run the PID setpoint up or down until the sweet spot is found, something that's not easy to do with the larger boilers in HX & double boiler machines.

Stuffy writing aside - I only put the above out there so anyone reading my recommendations would know something of my espresso background. Without that bit of context, I'm afraid my recommendations might appear to fall into one of John's categories - 1) those that can't admit they made a poor decision or 2) those who defend their own pecuniary choices out of jealousy.

[John F]

Stuffy writing aside - I only put the above out there so anyone reading my recommendations would know something of my espresso background. Without that bit of context, I'm afraid my recommendations might appear to fall into one of John's categories - 1) those that can't admit they made a poor decision or 2) those who defend their own pecuniary choices out of jealousy.

I said a %.

I don't put myself in those categories either.

I think of your position as of someone who has spent time in developing the philosophy of established standards and measures to a known position that is your definition of good espresso. By the way one thing I like about your documentation is that you edit it over time.

 I think your basic theme is that controling temp and brew pressure to the accepted standards is easily possible with PID/OPV machines and that is all one needs to produce something that is a proper temp/bar pulled shot. If they also follow good practices of fresh coffee, good water, etc..etc.. The baseline goal of "good coffee" is attainable.

I disagree with very little of that by the way but there is a lot more to the story beyond this point.

[Tex]

Stuffy writing aside - I only put the above out there so anyone reading my recommendations would know something of my espresso background. Without that bit of context, I'm afraid my recommendations might appear to fall into one of John's categories - 1) those that can't admit they made a poor decision or 2) those who defend their own pecuniary choices out of jealousy.

I said a %.

I don't put myself in those categories either.

I think of your position as of someone who has spent time in developing the philosophy of established standards and measures to a known position that is your definition of good espresso. By the way one thing I like about your documentation is that you edit it over time.

 I think your basic theme is that controling temp and brew pressure to the accepted standards is easily possible with PID/OPV machines and that is all one needs to produce something that is a proper temp/bar pulled shot. If they also follow good practices of fresh coffee, good water, etc..etc.. The baseline goal of "good coffee" is attainable.

I disagree with very little of that by the way but there is a lot more to the story beyond this point.

One thing that should be obvious to all - my interests are mostly in the mechanical aspects of making espresso, not the refining of techniques to get the most from each shot.

I'd much rather pull a couple dozens very good shots this week, than spend an inordinate amount of time trying to finesse the perfect shot. Maybe thirty years ago I'd have had a different agenda if this forum had existed then. For now, I'm satisfied with getting folks headed down the right road with proper equipment. I'll leave it to you & Shaun to take them that extra mile.

[John F]

One thing that should be obvious to all - my interests are mostly in the mechanical aspects of making espresso, not the refining of techniques to get the most from each shot.

For now, I'm satisfied with getting folks headed down the right road with proper equipment. I'll leave it to you & Shaun to take them that extra mile.

Fair enough and I think a close look will show the majority of anything I've disagreed with you on is about things in that extra mile category.

Hell man, I've got a modded Gaggia sitting over my shoulder right now. Obviously we agree on a few things.

[staylor]

I get it.

I know....cuz you are made of coffee.   

Takes one to know one. ;-)

[Warrior372]

All of your many prayers have been answered. CL Rhode Island there is an Isomac Millennium II for $500. Jump on it! I do not know anything about it or it's owner. http://providence.craigslist.org/bfs/1783198201.html

[mp]

All of your many prayers have been answered. CL Rhode Island there is an Isomac Millennium II for $500. Jump on it! I do not know anything about it or it's owner. http://providence.craigslist.org/bfs/1783198201.html

That is a good deal!  Who did you aim that at Warrior?

 

[Warrior372]

It seems like pyment is looking, but it is for whoever. There is also a Macap M4 on CL right now for $200. That is a great price too!

[mp]

Wow ... a decent espresso setup for $700.  How can you go wrong?