Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[Pyment]

Well, just learning about espresso and trying to figure out what those needs might be.

I guess the implication is that this one works and isn't too far.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html

[mp]

Well, just learning about espresso and trying to figure out what those needs might be.

I guess the implication is that this one works and isn't too far.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html

You heading over to pick it up?

 

[peter]

Well, just learning about espresso and trying to figure out what those needs might be.

I guess the implication is that this one works and isn't too far.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html

Do you have room for that monster, and a 220V outlet?  Unless you're more of a party animal than I thought, do you need a 2-group machine?

[Pyment]

I figured if peter could be a Spaz, so could I.

[John F]

Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.

Is it more important than the heavier group head?

Depends.

The only reason for the second boiler is to steam milk the second the shot is pulled (people always say at the same time but whatever)...

If you are not making milk drinks the group is obviously more important and if you are making lots of milk drinks both are important.

This long standing argument of pimped lessor machines vs. the better machines is never going to end. My simple answer is that the only advantage to "doing more with less" is saving $. I've been doing it for years and I am not in love with it one bit. Is it possible? Yes, of course it is. If you put in the work you can can do it but it's going to be harder.

The flip side is that I think lots of people buy a better machine and rely on the purchase to deliver the goods. They do not put in the work for great shots and therefore never realize the potential of what they have.

What is better working harder with less and meeting a mechanical limitation or purchasing more mechanical advantage than you will use?  

Answer: buy more than you can use and then work like hell to the limitation.....how many people do that ya think?

[mp]

Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.

Is it more important than the heavier group head?

Depends.

The only reason for the second boiler is to steam milk the second the shot is pulled (people always say at the same time but whatever)...

If you are not making milk drinks the group is obviously more important and if you are making lots of milk drinks both are important.

This long standing argument of pimped lessor machines vs. the better machines is never going to end. My simple answer is that the only advantage to "doing more with less" is saving $. I've been doing it for years and I am not in love with it one bit. Is it possible? Yes, of course it is. If you put in the work you can can do it but it's going to be harder.

The flip side is that I think lots of people buy a better machine and rely on the purchase to deliver the goods. They do not put in the work for great shots and therefore never realize the potential of what they have.

What is better working harder with less and meeting a mechanical limitation or purchasing more mechanical advantage than you will use?  

Answer: buy more than you can use and then work like hell to the limitation.....how many people do that ya think?

To answer that I think you would have to check out the bank book of the person in question.

 

[staylor]

Haha, since I last looked at this thread it has classically disintegrated into divided camps via some kind of misplaced labels - 'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd'.

HX, DB, MP, or ec2... whatever the acronym, design features or color of the machine, at some point the machine has to offer the following:

- Predictable repeatability.
- That repeatability has to remain within an acceptable standard of deviation in order to produce consistent espresso.
- If you do milk it has to be capable of great microfoam.
- If you entertain or do back to back to back testing of blends and SO shots it has to be capable of multiple shots standardized in a small time frame.

Nice to have's:

- Some form of reliable gauge or LCD feedback is convenient.
- Ability to use easily available digital or analogue adjustment (with gauge or LCD feedback) providing opportunity for rapid changes to temps or pressures in order to run test cases against several shots in just a few minutes.

A machine that allows me to do 10 shots in less than 20 mins, provides acceptable standardization and allows rapid and precise adjustability is ok in my books. If a house brick costing $2.75 did all of that I would be happy with a house brick. If it required a glowing sphere of light hovering near the toaster that cost me $2500 I would pay it.

[Warrior372]

Well, just learning about espresso and trying to figure out what those needs might be.

I guess the implication is that this one works and isn't too far.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html

You might want to look into one of these two as well!

This one is a single group commercial Reneka for $250. . . It is probably 8-10 years old, but they say they cleaned it and these cost $3k new.
http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/app/1777015591.html

This one is a 2-group Astoria Semi-Auto Commercial machine that they are asking $750 obo, if you want a 2-group.
http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/bfs/1780874630.html

You could have some serious fun with that Reneka, and at that price you would have more money for accessories!

[John F]

'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd'.

I see it slightly different.

I think there is a % of buying in to whatever equipment people choose and then justification towards their choices/decisions.

If I go out and spend what is a large amount of money for me I can't really tell you my shots are garbage without feeling silly. If I can't buy as much machine as you it might make me feel better to tell you my shots are every bit as good as yours.

Personally I have problems with both of those themes because they are both so un-espresso.  

But this argument is destined to go forever.

I've tried in a zillion threads to explain possibilities, expectations, (perceived results vs. actual) potentials, required workloads/effort on lessor machines, and loads of other stuff to try and keep it real because in truth you can't do everything with tinfoil and gum....just like you can't plunk down $2K and pull great shots based on your purchase price....

But great shots are possible on lessor machines and some people have over purchased beyond anything they will ever access.

But yeah, also what you said.  

  

[peter]

John F and staylor = thread killers.  Now that the troof is out there, how can we have any more fun lobbing grenades?   

[John F]

Now that the troof is out there, how can we have any more fun lobbing grenades?   

Easy, ignore it and move "forward".   

[Pyment]

we could argue about this machine:

http://fwd4.me/Sc1

[peter]

we could argue about this machine:

http://fwd4.me/Sc1

I'm afraid to send that kind of money to a foreign vendor.

What would happen if you simply bought a Alex Duetto II?  I mean what's the worst that could happen?

[Tex]

'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd'.

I see it slightly different.

I think there is a % of buying in to whatever equipment people choose and then justification towards their choices/decisions.

If I go out and spend what is a large amount of money for me I can't really tell you my shots are garbage without feeling silly. If I can't buy as much machine as you it might make me feel better to tell you my shots are every bit as good as yours.

snipped

There's always that argument, and I'd even buy into it except it doesn't take into account the varying levels of experience of those making claims. What you say is usually attributable to inexperienced users, who've either bought more than they can use or to those who're jealous of the purchases of others.

But what about folks who've been at this long enough to make a recommendation based entirely on their experiences? I've been playing at espresso for a handful of decades, using many different machines, sometimes coming back to a machine after a few years with an entirely different perspective.

I like double boilers! The first one I played with was the La Marzocco owned by a local service club. I agreed to rebuild it for them in exchange for some antiques they had that Mrs T wanted. It was the heaviest machine I've worked on to date, and it made great coffee after I rebuilt it (the frou-frou wasn't so good - my fault not the machine's).

I like HX machines! I own three,  and have rebuilt a half-dozen or so more. I prefer the Bunn ES-1A/Futurmat Milady (I own two now, and sold one other). Once the water dance is mastered HX machines make wonderful coffee - over and over and over.

I like SB/DU machines! The best thing about them is they're cheaper than HX or Double boiler machines. They're also easy to PID, and once modded they are the perfect espresso machine for the home roaster. It's been my experience that every roast of every SO is just different enough, that each has it's own sweet spot as far as brewing temps go. With the PID'd SB/DU machine one has the ideal machine to find that sweet spot. One can run the PID setpoint up or down until the sweet spot is found, something that's not easy to do with the larger boilers in HX & double boiler machines.

[staylor]

'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd'.

I see it slightly different.

I think there is a % of buying in to whatever equipment people choose and then justification towards their choices/decisions.

If I go out and spend what is a large amount of money for me I can't really tell you my shots are garbage without feeling silly. If I can't buy as much machine as you it might make me feel better to tell you my shots are every bit as good as yours.

Personally I have problems with both of those themes because they are both so un-espresso.  

But this argument is destined to go forever.

I've tried in a zillion threads to explain possibilities, expectations, (perceived results vs. actual) potentials, required workloads/effort on lessor machines, and loads of other stuff to try and keep it real because in truth you can't do everything with tinfoil and gum....just like you can't plunk down $2K and pull great shots based on your purchase price....

But great shots are possible on lessor machines and some people have over purchased beyond anything they will ever access.

But yeah, also what you said.  

No, actually we see it the same. I'm in complete agreement with everything you said. The reason I used the labels of 'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd', is because there is always one or two characters who start creating camps in order to try to polarize the crowd and further their own agenda, it gets tiring at times, don't you think?

Luckily for you and I we don't really have to guess where our heads are with espresso since we've drank hundreds of shots together, that gives us common reference points, phew!