Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[Tex]

Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.

Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!

Your very own words confirm what CG7 said about convenience Tex.  The routine you have to run through to approximate the correct brew temp is laughable.

There's no difference between what I outlined and what anyone does with any machine. There's no idle waiting involved - in the time it takes the boiler temp to stabilize I do other things that have to be done anyway.

Or do you have a robot that heads to the fridge for you to get the milk; or maybe you just lay the portafilter on the counter and it crawls over the the grinder by itself to get refilled? I've just managed my routine to the point where everything happens when it needs to happen.

You want convenience get a super-auto.

[peter]

Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you  );

You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less.  That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way.  But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.

You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."

[Tex]

Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you   );

You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less.  That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way.  But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.

You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."

And what I hear from you and GC7 is, "Don't bother with SB/DU machines, they can't do as good a job as a $2500 prosumer machine. Buy a more expensive machine from the outset and be happy" That does go against my frugal nature.

I write from a position of having used and rebuilt dozens hundreds of different machines; SB/DU consumer machines, HX & double boiler prosumer machines, HX, double boiler, lever operated, and even the oddball hydraulic espresso machine.

Other than a convenience factor of the double boiler machines (only applicable if you make many milk based drinks), and the inconvenience of cooling flushes in HX machines (only a problem if not in frequent use), I can report that every machine I've used could make good espresso drinks.

Some were a pain to use - The Cimbali hydraulic group machine was a leaker; I could never get all the o-rings and gaskets sealed. Some were literally a real pain to use - The Rancilio lever machine I worked on irritated my arthritic shoulder enough to convince me that a lever machine would never be my go to device.

Bottom line for me: Any machine capable of being tuned for proper brew temp and brew pressure is capable of making great espresso. The limiting factor is more the operators skill level than the machine's capabilities. My goal is to ensure that SB/DU machines get a fair shake instead of being looked down on by espresso snobs.

[mp]

Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you  );

You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less.  That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way.  But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.

You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Now that is funny.  I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.

 

[GC7]

There is NOTHING WRONG with a SB/DU machine.  However, if you are comfortable spending more then you will in fact get more both in performance and in convenience.  I harbor no snob-factor against anyone who can’t or won’t spend more then it costs to buy a Sylvia or a Gaggia. 
Can you leave your machine on 24/7?  To some that’s important as a convenience.
Can it be put on a timer so you can roll out of bed and make a shot?  Some don’t want to wake up an hour earlier than necessary.
These are two additional features that you may or may not wish to pay extra.  It’s up to the consumer. 

Just get accurate facts out there for people to select without EXAGGERATION.

[Tex]

There is NOTHING WRONG with a SB/DU machine.  However, if you are comfortable spending more then you will in fact get more both in performance and in convenience.  I harbor no snob-factor against anyone who can’t or won’t spend more then it costs to buy a Sylvia or a Gaggia. 
Can you leave your machine on 24/7?  To some that’s important as a convenience.
Can it be put on a timer so you can roll out of bed and make a shot?  Some don’t want to wake up an hour earlier than necessary.
These are two additional features that you may or may not wish to pay extra.  It’s up to the consumer. 

Just get accurate facts out there for people to select without EXAGGERATION.

It's actually NOT a good idea to leave any machine on 24/7 and unattended. Ever seen a plumbed-in machine flood a shop. I have, twice. But I have both my Gaggia Classic & Bunn ES-1A HX machine on 20 amp timers. If I didn't have them on timers, either machine will go from room temp to brew temp in less than 30 minutes.

Honestly, what set me off against you was this post: http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=9507.msg148838#msg148838

Your statement that SB/DU machines are incapable of temp stability and that environmental temperatures somehow affect shot quality showed you to be totally ignorant of espresso as a process and of having no knowledge off the machines. Your statement, "Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.", is so far from the truth that I just threw up my hands in disgust!

[Pyment]

Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you  );

You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less.  That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way.  But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.

You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Now that is funny.  I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.

 

Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.

I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.

Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.

Is it more important than the heavier group head?

[mp]

Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you  );

You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less.  That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way.  But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.

You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Now that is funny.  I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.

 

Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.

I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.

Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.

Is it more important than the heavier group head?

My only point was if you are looking at spending $1350 on a HX machine then why not $1635 on a double boiler machine which dedicates a boiler to the brewing stability and a boiler to the steaming stability.

Good value IMHO.

 

[mp]

Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you  );

You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less.  That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way.  But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.

You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Now that is funny.  I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.

 

Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.

I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.

Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.

Is it more important than the heavier group head?

In fact ... if it wasn't for the dry spell of machines coming at the time I was looking and the fact that you had to plumb it in (direct water source or 5 gallon water bottle) Robert had me convinced that the Bunn ES-1A was a great machine of Industrial capability at a great price with parts readily available and fairly cheap.

I still liked the idea of a pour over water replenishment so I went prosumer HX and got an Isomac Tea ll.

I picked it up for $730 US dollars delivered just as the Vibiemme double boiler machines were announced that availability would be imminent. 

If I was jumping in at this juncture and I had the mula ... it would be on a Vibiemme.

My 2 cents.

 

[Tex]

Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you   );

You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less.  That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way.  But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.

You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Now that is funny.  I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.

 

Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.

I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.

Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.

Is it more important than the heavier group head?

There are other SB/DU machines that I'd place in between the Silvia/Classic and the VII/Vibiemme/Brewtus. I'd look for a prosumer machines with a large boiler (1 liter min & insulated), PID control. s/s chassis, 58mm saturated/thermo-siphon group, and a few other things.

I wouldn't recommend an HX machine to anyone other than an experienced user - even though I've talked a lot of folks into buying the Bunn ES-1A, for the most part they'd all cut their teeth on consumer machines.

[Tex]

Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you  );

You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less.  That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way.  But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.

You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Now that is funny.  I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.

 

Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.

I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.

Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.

Is it more important than the heavier group head?

In fact ... if it wasn't for the dry spell of machines coming at the time I was looking and the fact that you had to plumb it in (direct water source or 5 gallon water bottle) Robert had me convinced that the Bunn ES-1A was a great machine of Industrial capability at a great price with parts readily available and fairly cheap.

I still liked the idea of a pour over water replenishment so I went prosumer HX and got an Isomac Tea ll.

I picked it up for $730 US dollars delivered just as the Vibiemme double boiler machines were announced that availability would be imminent. 

If I was jumping in at this juncture and I had the mula ... it would be on a Vibiemme.

My 2 cents.

 

Yeah, I recall the exchange of messages Mike. We had you ready to jump on the next Bunn that came along -- but that was one of those times when none were on the market for months. Your Tea is a good machine for you, the double boilers would just be different, not necessarily an improvement.

Don't let the upgradeitus bug get too firm a grip on you!

[GC7]

There is NOTHING WRONG with a SB/DU machine.  However, if you are comfortable spending more then you will in fact get more both in performance and in convenience.  I harbor no snob-factor against anyone who can’t or won’t spend more then it costs to buy a Sylvia or a Gaggia. 
Can you leave your machine on 24/7?  To some that’s important as a convenience.
Can it be put on a timer so you can roll out of bed and make a shot?  Some don’t want to wake up an hour earlier than necessary.
These are two additional features that you may or may not wish to pay extra.  It’s up to the consumer. 

Just get accurate facts out there for people to select without EXAGGERATION.

It's actually NOT a good idea to leave any machine on 24/7 and unattended. Ever seen a plumbed-in machine flood a shop. I have, twice. But I have both my Gaggia Classic & Bunn ES-1A HX machine on 20 amp timers. If I didn't have them on timers, either machine will go from room temp to brew temp in less than 30 minutes.

Honestly, what set me off against you was this post: http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=9507.msg148838#msg148838

Your statement that SB/DU machines are incapable of temp stability and that environmental temperatures somehow affect shot quality showed you to be totally ignorant of espresso as a process and of having no knowledge off the machines. Your statement, "Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.", is so far from the truth that I just threw up my hands in disgust!

I thought you were not going to reply to my posts!  That didn’t last long.

You have your opinion.  I think/KNOW that you are wrong. Just because you say the above does not make it correct and I fully believe every word that I wrote.  People can believe what they want and you can continue to exaggerate the capabilities of home espresso SB/DU machines. I believe my viewpoint is both more balanced and believable.  The laws of thermodynamics still apply to espresso machines regardless of what you write about the capabilities of your machine.

[mp]

Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you  );

You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less.  That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way.  But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.

You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Now that is funny.  I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.

 

Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.

I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.

Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.

Is it more important than the heavier group head?

In fact ... if it wasn't for the dry spell of machines coming at the time I was looking and the fact that you had to plumb it in (direct water source or 5 gallon water bottle) Robert had me convinced that the Bunn ES-1A was a great machine of Industrial capability at a great price with parts readily available and fairly cheap.

I still liked the idea of a pour over water replenishment so I went prosumer HX and got an Isomac Tea ll.

I picked it up for $730 US dollars delivered just as the Vibiemme double boiler machines were announced that availability would be imminent. 

If I was jumping in at this juncture and I had the mula ... it would be on a Vibiemme.

My 2 cents.

 

Yeah, I recall the exchange of messages Mike. We had you ready to jump on the next Bunn that came along -- but that was one of those times when none were on the market for months. Your Tea is a good machine for you, the double boilers would just be different, not necessarily an improvement.

Don't let the upgradeitus bug get too firm a grip on you!

Nah ... truthfully ... the Tea ll is a very nice machine.  I am pulling the best espresso shots I ever had with it ... and don't even have a PID on it.
 

It steams like a choo choo train ... and now I am getting the technique of the micro foam for the coveted frou frou drinks.

Man ... life doesn't get any better.

 

[Pyment]

so, why not slap a PID on this?

http://www.wholelattelove.com/KitchenAid/proline.cfm?ConID=1#anchor

Made by Gaggia.

[Tex]

so, why not slap a PID on this?

http://www.wholelattelove.com/KitchenAid/proline.cfm?ConID=1#anchor

Made by Gaggia.

We have owners of the Proline in the Gaggia group who swear by them. To me, they're a bit pricey for what you get and frankly, I've always been turned off by their looks.

 I can't recall, have you ever defined what your needs will be? Mostly espresso or lots of milk drinks? Occasional use or high use/entertaining? Do you want pour over or plumbed. Do you want a plug & play machine or do you want one needing rebuilding?