Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[peter]

You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.

[Tex]

So,  wouldn't it be more efficient to have one PID for the extraction process and a P-stat for the steam? Is there such a machine?

doesn't the Ascaso Steel single boiler with the PID essentially doing that in a single boiler machine? It has a saturated brass group head. It should perform like a PID'd Gaggia, right? Of course it looks better.

I know nothing specific about it, so if you want to buy it and send it over I'd be happy to evaluate it - free of charge of course!

There's a big difference in quality between the industrial strength PID's like the Watlows Jim Gallt uses in his kits or the Cal Controls PID's I use in my mods and the off-brands used by some. Which is Ascaso using?

From what I saw in the Ascaso Duo I used for a few weeks, I'm not sold on their build quality. Honestly, I'd never buy a machine that looked so poorly  put together. I don't know if their design translates into one that survives the test of time, but it completely failed my confidence test.

I'd stick with a proven design like the Silvia, Classic or Solis, and let someone else do the beta testing of a new design.

[Tex]

You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.

PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.

Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.

If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.

While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.

Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.

[GC7]

You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.

PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.

Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.

If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.

While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.

Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.

In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA.  Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines.  They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead.  When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not!  At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine.    Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.

[Pyment]

The PID on the Ascaso looks a lot like the one on the Alex II which is a Gicar.

OK, it appears the consensus next step up for the home user  from a PID'd Silvia (no Y) or Gaggia would be a DB Machine? The choices "boil" down to Vivaldi II, Alex Duetto II, Expobar Brewtus, Vibiemme Domobar.

Others?

[Tex]

You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.

PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.

Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.

If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.

While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.

Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.

In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA.  Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines.  They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead.  When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not!  At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine.    Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.

Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.

Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!

[Pyment]

I had intended to put in the link for the Ascaso on 1st line: http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ascaso/ascaso_steel_uno_prof_pid.htm

[GC7]

You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.

PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.

Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.

If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.

While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.

Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.

In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA.  Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines.  They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead.  When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not!  At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine.    Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.

Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.

Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!

It's not babble - simply fact!  It doesn't matter how you tune or set up a machine that can't have good thermal stability due to small boiler and low overall mass to hold temperatures steady.  It's physics and thermodynamics.  I won't knock a SB/DU machine if that's all you can afford.  I've had good shots but it's VERY difficult to do so day to day and consistently. If you disagree then fine but that''s my (admittedly limited) experience.

[Tex]

You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.

PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.

Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.

If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.

While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.

Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.

In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA.  Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines.  They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead.  When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not!  At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine.    Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.

Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.

Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!

It's not babble - simply fact!  It doesn't matter how you tune or set up a machine that can't have good thermal stability due to small boiler and low overall mass to hold temperatures steady.  It's physics and thermodynamics.  I won't knock a SB/DU machine if that's all you can afford.  I've had good shotsas but it's VERY difficult to do so day to day and consistently. If you disagree then fine but that''s my (admittedly limited) experience.

Your lack of knowledge should be taken into consideration by anyone looking for machine advice.

How does Jim's statement equate to what you're saying?

[GC7]

You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.

PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.

Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.

If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.

While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.

Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.

In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA.  Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines.  They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead.  When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not!  At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine.    Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.

Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.

Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!

It's not babble - simply fact!  It doesn't matter how you tune or set up a machine that can't have good thermal stability due to small boiler and low overall mass to hold temperatures steady.  It's physics and thermodynamics.  I won't knock a SB/DU machine if that's all you can afford.  I've had good shotsas but it's VERY difficult to do so day to day and consistently. If you disagree then fine but that''s my (admittedly limited) experience.

Your lack of knowledge should be taken into consideration by anyone looking for machine advice.

How does Jim's statement equate to what you're saying?

That's TOTAL BS on your part. Jim's statement means that without a grinder you can't make good espresso. Period.  It says NOTHING about the ability of a SB/DU low end home machine to make CONSISTENTLY good espresso.
Set you PID to a temperature and pull shots at equilibrium with a room temperature of 75*.  Next day using the same PID setting at equilibrium with a room temperature of 65* and the extraction temperature will vary considerably from the previous day. That's just one of several variables that will be less then optimal with a SB/DU like Sylvia or Gaggia.  Much more so then a prosumer machine with larger thermal mass.  I think you're totally biased and wrong.

[Tex]

You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.

PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.

Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.

If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.

While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.

Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.

In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA.  Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines.  They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead.  When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not!  At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine.    Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.

Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.

Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!

It's not babble - simply fact!  It doesn't matter how you tune or set up a machine that can't have good thermal stability due to small boiler and low overall mass to hold temperatures steady.  It's physics and thermodynamics.  I won't knock a SB/DU machine if that's all you can afford.  I've had good shotsas but it's VERY difficult to do so day to day and consistently. If you disagree then fine but that''s my (admittedly limited) experience.

Your lack of knowledge should be taken into consideration by anyone looking for machine advice.

How does Jim's statement equate to what you're saying?

That's TOTAL BS on your part. Jim's statement means that without a grinder you can't make good espresso. Period.  It says NOTHING about the ability of a SB/DU low end home machine to make CONSISTENTLY good espresso.
Set you PID to a temperature and pull shots at equilibrium with a room temperature of 75*.  Next day using the same PID setting at ewquilibrium with a room temperature of 65* and the extraction temperature will vary considerably from the previous day.  Much more so then a prosumer machine with larger thermal mass.  I think you're totally biased and wrong.

I won't respond to your posts and I'd appreciate it if you'd return the favor?

[GC7]

You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.

PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.

Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.

If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.

While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.

Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.

In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA.  Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines.  They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead.  When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not!  At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine.    Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.

Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.

Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!

It's not babble - simply fact!  It doesn't matter how you tune or set up a machine that can't have good thermal stability due to small boiler and low overall mass to hold temperatures steady.  It's physics and thermodynamics.  I won't knock a SB/DU machine if that's all you can afford.  I've had good shotsas but it's VERY difficult to do so day to day and consistently. If you disagree then fine but that''s my (admittedly limited) experience.

Your lack of knowledge should be taken into consideration by anyone looking for machine advice.

How does Jim's statement equate to what you're saying?

That's TOTAL BS on your part. Jim's statement means that without a grinder you can't make good espresso. Period.  It says NOTHING about the ability of a SB/DU low end home machine to make CONSISTENTLY good espresso.
Set you PID to a temperature and pull shots at equilibrium with a room temperature of 75*.  Next day using the same PID setting at ewquilibrium with a room temperature of 65* and the extraction temperature will vary considerably from the previous day.  Much more so then a prosumer machine with larger thermal mass.  I think you're totally biased and wrong.

I won't respond to your posts and I'd appreciate it if you'd return the favor?

Good answer Dude.  What's the title of the thread you started?

[mp]

Oh dear ... a sure fire route to the hot topics section.

 

[Tex]

Oh dear ... a sure fire route to the hot topics section.

 

Nope - I'm trying to avoid that.

[peter]

Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.

Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!

Your very own words confirm what CG7 said about convenience Tex.  The routine you have to run through to approximate the correct brew temp is laughable.