Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[Warrior372]

Getting an account with a shipping company is a great idea. Do you have to commit to shipping a certain number of packages per month? Do you get a discount on shipping just for having an account?

Just need to open an account, no requirements.

I also like to have it so that I can pay, print, and label outgoing boxes.  Then you just have to drop it off w/o standing in line, or better yet, hand it to a driver.

And one other thing, with an account you can order a lot of shipping supplies for free - free is always good!

That is an interesting incentive / added bonus!

[John F]

I am kind of getting to like that Hexagon.

I've looked at that machine plenty of times.....

I also like it.

[Pyment]

Jim says they've been discontinued.

[Warrior372]

Jim says they've been discontinued.

Yea. . . That is probably why some person has been asking $2,999 dollars for one on both ebay and craiglist for about 3 months.

[Pyment]

Well then, moving on.

On Essential Espresso (reliable vendor?) they list a Brasilia Mini Classic for $1499. With a 10% off coupon that makes it $1,349.10 shipped.

E-61 Brew Group
1.2 liter boiler
3 way solenoid

http://www.essentialespresso.com/Brasilia/Brasilia_Espresso_Machine.cfm?ConID=New_1#anchor

[mp]

Your money Pyment. 

Another option is the Vibiemme Domobar JUNIOR Double Boiler espresso w/PID for $1635.00 delivered.

- double boiler
- PID control
- 9 pound E61 true Faema group
- Insulated boilers
- professional grade 58 mm brass portafilters
- independent power switches for steam and coffee brewing
- 1600 watt heating element
- 62 pound shipping weight

Is a double boiler and PID machine worth another $300 to you?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vibiemme-Domobar-JUNIOR-Double-Boiler-espresso-w-PID-/280515541720?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item4150077ad8

 

[Pyment]

I understand the reasoning behind the E61. This whole double boiler thing puzzles me.

It seems most commercial machines ansswer the steam problem with much bigger boilers instead. I don't forsee me beeing efficient enough to really worry abouta 30 sec delay between the shot and the steam.

[mp]

I understand the reasoning behind the E61. This whole double boiler thing puzzles me.

It seems most commercial machines ansswer the steam problem with much bigger boilers instead. I don't forsee me beeing efficient enough to really worry abouta 30 sec delay between the shot and the steam.

Double boiler ensures that you have the right temperature for both your functions ... that is the right temperature to do steam and the right temperature to pull a nice shot of espresso for that particular bean you are brewing.

The bigger the boiler the more consistent the water temperature for the duration of the shot.  You simply cannot have more stable temperatures than a commercial machines big boiler.

On the other hand how many times will you have to pull 100 espressos an hour for 8 or more hours a day?

 

[Warrior372]

The nice part about commercial espresso machines is that if you want to throw a party and pull 100 shots per hour it is possible. But more then that, I love commercial espresso machines because they are built to pull 100+ shots per hour. To me this means all of their parts should outlive me, especially when I am typically only pulling 2-3 doubles a day.

[mp]

The nice part about commercial espresso machines is that if you want to throw a party and pull 100 shots per hour it is possible. But more then that, I love commercial espresso machines because they are built to pull 100+ shots per hour. To me this means all of their parts should outlive me, especially when I am typically only pulling 2-3 doubles a day.

They probably will outlive you and perhaps your offspring.

 

[Pyment]

Double boiler ensures that you have the right temperature for both your functions ... that is the right temperature to do steam and the right temperature to pull a nice shot of espresso for that particular bean you are brewing.

I am not being dense on purpose, but right temp for steam? water boils when water boils and you either have enough steam or you don't. Fine temp control seems totally unnecessary. A pressure gauge, yes. PID, doesn't make sense to me.

I look at single group commercial machines. Most of them regulate brew temp without a PID. How?

[Tex]

I understand the reasoning behind the E61. This whole double boiler thing puzzles me.

It seems most commercial machines ansswer the steam problem with much bigger boilers instead. I don't forsee me beeing efficient enough to really worry abouta 30 sec delay between the shot and the steam.

Most commercial machines use heat exchangers (HX). These typically have large boilers because the water in the HX is flash heated by the boiler water as fresh/cool water is passed through the HX on the way to the group. As an added benefit these large boilers also make prodigious amounts of steam.

HX: Designed for commercial operations where they seldom sit idle. When they do sit idle the temps of the group & HX tube/water will rise to stabilize at boiler temp (usually ~253°F). Way too hot for making espresso, it's necessary to flush fresh water through the HX & group to bring the temps down into the brewing range (195° - 203°). see note ¹

Double Boiler: Each boiler is kept at the temp best suited for its purpose. The brew boiler is always at the temp selected that's within the range for brewing and the steam boiler is always at a temp which provides lots of steam power.

Single Boiler/Dual Use: Uses the same boiler for brewing and steaming. After a shot is pulled a switch is flipped and a circuit is activated which will bring the boiler temp to steaming temp (~300°F). Because of the temp changes it take a while to go from brew temp to steam temp and then back to brew temp.

edited - note ¹: Brew temps in an HX are controlled by a combination of boiler temps which flash heat the water in the HX, how long the water stays in the HX tube as the shot is pulled, and the temp of the group. If permitted to sit idle, the HX & group will over heat and must be cooled down to brew temp before the shot is pulled.

[peter]

Double boiler ensures that you have the right temperature for both your functions ... that is the right temperature to do steam and the right temperature to pull a nice shot of espresso for that particular bean you are brewing.

I am not being dense on purpose, but right temp for steam? water boils when water boils and you either have enough steam or you don't. Fine temp control seems totally unnecessary. A pressure gauge, yes. PID, doesn't make sense to me.

I look at single group commercial machines. Most of them regulate brew temp without a PID. How?

Steam temps are important.  They need to be regulated, or un-regulated would be better?  When steam or hot water is drawn out, new water needs to be heated, and it needs to know when to turn on and off, and a PID for controlling the steam boiler is more accurate and durable than mechanical means (a pressure-stat?), from what I've read.

But if you are going to use that super-heated water for brewing, you are way too hot. Double boilers simply make sense, PID's on both makes more sense, and a PID that will monitor brew temps vs. boiler temps even more so.

[Tex]

Double boiler ensures that you have the right temperature for both your functions ... that is the right temperature to do steam and the right temperature to pull a nice shot of espresso for that particular bean you are brewing.

I am not being dense on purpose, but right temp for steam? water boils when water boils and you either have enough steam or you don't. Fine temp control seems totally unnecessary. A pressure gauge, yes. PID, doesn't make sense to me.

I look at single group commercial machines. Most of them regulate brew temp without a PID. How?

Steam temps are important.  They need to be regulated, or un-regulated would be better?  When steam or hot water is drawn out, new water needs to be heated, and it needs to know when to turn on and off, and a PID for controlling the steam boiler is more accurate and durable than mechanical means (a pressure-stat?), from what I've read.

But if you are going to use that super-heated water for brewing, you are way too hot. Double boilers simply make sense, PID's on both makes more sense, and a PID that will monitor brew temps vs. boiler temps even more so.

Actually, pstats are very accurate, and the better ones have adjustable dead-bands which increases their accuracy. PID's for steam boilers is over kill. A PID is used to manage temps when fine accuracy is needed. A steam boiler will work fine within a 20°F range - no need for fine temp management.

For steam boilers I'd recommend the cheaper, and just as robust, Watlow temp limit controllers in place of the PID temp controllers. Match the right tool to the job at hand. In fact, if you can tolerate the racket a pstat makes as the relays open & close (click/clack, click/clack, all day and all night, click/clack), then I'd suggest staying with the pstat - they do a fine job when gross accuracy is all that's needed.

edited: More detailed explanations here: http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/temperaturecontrollers.html

[Pyment]

So,  wouldn't it be more efficient to have one PID for the extraction process and a P-stat for the steam? Is there such a machine?

doesn't the Ascaso Steel single boiler with the PID essentially doing that in a single boiler machine? It has a saturated brass group head. It should perform like a PID'd Gaggia, right? Of course it looks better.