Synesso or La Marzocco? Which is better and why?

[Warrior372]

I would like to get opinions from those of you who have encountered these machines from these two manufacturers. Who's machines do you think are better and why?

I have been reading about all of the ups and downs of Marzocco GS/3 owners over at HB and it made me wonder if the Synesso is a superiorly designed machine. I know Mark Barnett (Synesso's founder) started out with LM and branched out after SB stopped utilizing their machines in the States.

I have my opinions / assumptions, but I have never used either machines from either company myself. What do all of you who have encountered / played with both think?

[milowebailey]

I've never used either machine, but I've been in the Synesso factory (shop really).  Each machine is hand built.  Simple, great design.  La Marzocco are more mass produced, but still a good machine.  If you can swing a Synesso.... that would be my choice.

[Tex]

I've rebuilt a 2-group Linea, and I got to keep it to use for 2 months. I love the way LM builds machines; no short cuts, no half-measures. If anything, they over engineered the Linea. If it wasn't so damn big I'd have kept it for my daily machine - first shot, every shot, the same temp all day long!

I haven't seen the inside of a Synesso, and the Linea is the only LM machine I've had my hands in.

[Warrior372]

I know that all of the Synesso parts are stainless steel and both their parts and their machines are made in the US. Mark Barnett was also at the forefront of temperature controlled boilers and groupheads. I also like how they themselves will not modify their machines for you because they want to encourage you to get cosmetic modifications done by local artisans.

I was just reading an interview with Mark Barnett and found some of his comments to be a bit interesting. Apparently Synesso was the first company to integrate boiler PIDs and group head heating into an espresso machine. He goes on to talk about the craze of pressure profiling shots and how he really does not think it is going to give baristas the type of results they are looking for in the cup. He said that he thinks the pressure profiling will be best utilized when replicating lever pressure profiles.

That made me question the necessity / benefit of a super high-tech espresso machine with hundreds of parts to maintain / watch / replace. If the ultimate goal is to replicate the shot profile of a machine made around the 1940s, what is the incentive to spend thousands of dollars on a Synesso or Marzocco when you can easily find an old lever for much less and spend much less time fixing / replacing broken parts.

[Tex]

I know that all of the Synesso parts are stainless steel and both their parts and their machines are made in the US. Mark Barnett was also at the forefront of temperature controlled boilers and groupheads. I also like how they themselves will not modify their machines for you because they want to encourage you to get cosmetic modifications done by local artisans.

I was just reading an interview with Mark Barnett and found some of his comments to be a bit interesting. Apparently Synesso was the first company to integrate boiler PIDs and group head heating into an espresso machine. He goes on to talk about the craze of pressure profiling shots and how he really does not think it is going to give baristas the type of results they are looking for in the cup. He said that he thinks the pressure profiling will be best utilized when replicating lever pressure profiles.

That made me question the necessity / benefit of a super high-tech espresso machine with hundreds of parts to maintain / watch / replace. If the ultimate goal is to replicate the shot profile of a machine made around the 1940s, what is the incentive to spend thousands of dollars on a Synesso or Marzocco when you can easily find an old lever for much less and spend much less time fixing / replacing broken parts.

The LM I had could be used 24/7 with no noticeable temp deviation. I doubt there's a better machine in the world for a super busy coffee shop with non-stop business.

If you're a pump machine guy, then these are the standards to measure everything else by. If you're a lever guy, then you probably would get it.

That said, I doubt I'll buy a GS/3. La Marzocco's are supposed to be $15,000 worth of hardware, not $4,000 worth of compromises.

[Dante]

That said, I doubt I'll buy a GS/3. La Marzocco's are supposed to be $15,000 worth of hardware, not $4,000 worth of compromises.

This got my attention, Tex, as I am about to pull the trigger on a paddle version of the GS/3. May I know what you mean by the above? Thank you.

[Warrior372]

That said, I doubt I'll buy a GS/3. La Marzocco's are supposed to be $15,000 worth of hardware, not $4,000 worth of compromises.

This got my attention, Tex, as I am about to pull the trigger on a paddle version of the GS/3. May I know what you mean by the above? Thank you.

What I took from Tex is that Marzocco machines cost so much because of the parts / pieces used and R&D that go into making the equipment. When you suddenly make a smaller single group version and now ask $6k for it there must be compromise somewhere otherwise it would not be cost effective for them to produce it. That compromise could be internal parts / pieces used, corners cut or lack of R&D.

Dante, Have you read the more recent threads on HB in regard to the GS/3? It seems to have it's own set of problems, which for the price seem unacceptable.

Have you explored the Synesso single group Cyncra? I suppose you could get a single group Hydra too which would allow for pressure profiling. I have no idea what that luxury would cost you, but it is an option none-the-less.

[Tex]

That said, I doubt I'll buy a GS/3. La Marzocco's are supposed to be $15,000 worth of hardware, not $4,000 worth of compromises.

This got my attention, Tex, as I am about to pull the trigger on a paddle version of the GS/3. May I know what you mean by the above? Thank you.

What I took from Tex is that Marzocco machines cost so much because of the parts / pieces used and R&D that go into making the equipment. When you suddenly make a smaller single group version and now ask $6k for it there must be compromise somewhere otherwise it would not be cost effective for them to produce it. That compromise could be internal parts / pieces used, corners cut or lack of R&D.

Dante, Have you read the more recent threads on HB in regard to the GS/3? It seems to have it's own set of problems, which for the price seem unacceptable.

Have you explored the Synesso single group Cyncra? I suppose you could get a single group Hydra too which would allow for pressure profiling. I have no idea what that luxury would cost you, but it is an option none-the-less.

What he said.

[Dante]

Thanks for the heads up guys. I was about to put my order in already but I will hold off and read up on those issues first.

This group is great! It just saved me from a $7,500 headache. That's how much a GS/3 costs here in Manila. Argh!

[Warrior372]

Thanks for the heads up guys. I was about to put my order in already but I will hold off and read up on those issues first.

This group is great! It just saved me from a $7,500 headache. That's how much a GS/3 costs here in Manila. Argh!

Check into the Synesso versus the GS/3 too! I did not see a distributor in the Philippines. I think hong Kong would be your closest distributor. Although, you do have a shipping container that goes to you from the US, right? If there is not distributor by you, maybe you could purchase from the US (if it ended up being cheaper) and have it shipped to your forwarder. I believe they run around $7,500-$8,000 US. I emailed them today, so we will see.

The build quality is supposed to be superior, Not to mention if you call the company you will likely talk to Mark, the owner. That means a lot to me personally, since as the designer he should have all of the answers.

[Dante]

Check into the Synesso versus the GS/3 too! I did not see a distributor in the Philippines. I think hong Kong would be your closest distributor. Although, you do have a shipping container that goes to you from the US, right? If there is not distributor by you, maybe you could purchase from the US (if it ended up being cheaper) and have it shipped to your forwarder. I believe they run around $7,500-$8,000 US. I emailed them today, so we will see.

The build quality is supposed to be superior, Not to mention if you call the company you will likely talk to Mark, the owner. That means a lot to me personally, since as the designer he should have all of the answers.

No, there is no Philippine distributor for Synesso. I might be open to doing this myself if Synesso wants to enter the high end market here. It's not a big market, but all the big brands are here - Rancilio, Nuova Simonelli, La Marzocco, La Cimbali, Astoria. I do have a forwarder in Los Angeles who can send a Synesso to me if I buy one from the States. I shipped my Sonofresco and my old but trusty pre-owned La Cimbali M30 Classic through them, so the forwarder is pretty reliable. Maybe I should talk to Mark.

Aside from the Synesso, would there be any comparable machines out there that would do what the GS/3 does (temp and pressure surfing)?

[Tex]

Check into the Synesso versus the GS/3 too! I did not see a distributor in the Philippines. I think hong Kong would be your closest distributor. Although, you do have a shipping container that goes to you from the US, right? If there is not distributor by you, maybe you could purchase from the US (if it ended up being cheaper) and have it shipped to your forwarder. I believe they run around $7,500-$8,000 US. I emailed them today, so we will see.

The build quality is supposed to be superior, Not to mention if you call the company you will likely talk to Mark, the owner. That means a lot to me personally, since as the designer he should have all of the answers.

No, there is no Philippine distributor for Synesso. I might be open to doing this myself if Synesso wants to enter the high end market here. It's not a big market, but all the big brands are here - Rancilio, Nuova Simonelli, La Marzocco, La Cimbali, Astoria. I do have a forwarder in Los Angeles who can send a Synesso to me if I buy one from the States. I shipped my Sonofresco and my old but trusty pre-owned La Cimbali M30 Classic through them, so the forwarder is pretty reliable. Maybe I should talk to Mark.

Aside from the Synesso, would there be any comparable machines out there that would do what the GS/3 does (temp and pressure surfing)?

DB lever machine?

[Dante]

DB lever machine?

Tex, what is a DB lever? I Googled it and didn't get any coherent hits. Thanks!

[Warrior372]

Check into the Synesso versus the GS/3 too! I did not see a distributor in the Philippines. I think hong Kong would be your closest distributor. Although, you do have a shipping container that goes to you from the US, right? If there is not distributor by you, maybe you could purchase from the US (if it ended up being cheaper) and have it shipped to your forwarder. I believe they run around $7,500-$8,000 US. I emailed them today, so we will see.

The build quality is supposed to be superior, Not to mention if you call the company you will likely talk to Mark, the owner. That means a lot to me personally, since as the designer he should have all of the answers.

No, there is no Philippine distributor for Synesso. I might be open to doing this myself if Synesso wants to enter the high end market here. It's not a big market, but all the big brands are here - Rancilio, Nuova Simonelli, La Marzocco, La Cimbali, Astoria. I do have a forwarder in Los Angeles who can send a Synesso to me if I buy one from the States. I shipped my Sonofresco and my old but trusty pre-owned La Cimbali M30 Classic through them, so the forwarder is pretty reliable. Maybe I should talk to Mark.

Aside from the Synesso, would there be any comparable machines out there that would do what the GS/3 does (temp and pressure surfing)?

Yes. You should give him a call. It sounds like he is very accessible.

A Kees Van der Westen Speedster should be comparable. Although user info on them will be hard to find since not a whole lot of peple have them. With what I know about it, it is more flash and wow than a Synesso, but likely does not produce anything better for the additional money. I believe they started out utilizing a lot of, if not all, Marzocco internal, but have since supposedly started making some of their own.

The Synesso is the only machine of the 3 that has multi-group versions of the exact same machine being utilized in top tier shops. I think that in and of itself says quite a bit. Yes, you see a lot of Marzocco's in shops, but never a GS/3. And as Tex eluded to above, I am sure the burlier Marzocco's being used in shops have quite different components in them.

[Warrior372]

DB lever machine?

Tex, what is a DB lever? I Googled it and didn't get any coherent hits. Thanks!

It might just be a Double Boiler Lever machine.